The ‘no go area’ myth

Britain First loves to claim that there are Muslim ghettos in UK that they describe as ‘no go areas’ for non-Muslims. This is a lie! It’s one of many far-right myths. They have stolen this idea from their predecessors and ideological soulmates, the English Defence League who regularly marched into parts of our major cities, effectively disproving their own point in the process.

EBF Shariah zone picThe only piece of ‘evidence’ ever presented for this is a photograph of a small group of extremists who fly-posted signs in a particularly multi-cultural London borough announcing that it was an area controlled by Shariah law. It’s true that this happened. Extremists do a lot of stupid things. Britain First’s ‘Christian Patrols’, led by Paul Golding himself,  are a typical example of the same extremist stupidity. It’s also true that these few Muslim extremists were arrested, convicted and sentenced back in 2013 for this criminal attempt to usurp British law. It is not true, as was claimed on FOX News recently, that the whole of Birmingham is a ‘no go area’ for non-Muslims. Nor is it true that there is a single area anywhere in Britain where only Muslims are safe.

It is true that there are areas where any stranger is at risk of attack, especially if they look like they may be worth mugging but that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with social inequality. It’s also true that far right Nazis carrying provocative banners and chanting, “Allah is a paedo”, will not be well received in areas with diverse populations. But that’s hardly a surprise.

If you want to live in a land where you are free to move around regardless of religion then stop insulting people and start acting like decent human beings. Then you’ll be as free to move around this wonderfully diverse country as the rest of us.

It’s not rocket science!

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113 thoughts on “The ‘no go area’ myth

  1. Hmmm, I wonder if I go around and stick up posters saying, “Terry Desmond Donaldson now controls this street and demands you to give him a testicle massage every evening at 6pm”, it would then become law…I’ll keep you guys posted 😀

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  2. Jokes aside, it’s absurd that people genuinely think these “no-go areas” actually exist. I’m pretty sure that a community can not dictate who is or isn’t allowed to walk down streets. There may be areas that people feel scared to walk down? Sure. But such people are no doubt the sort that wouldn’t even attempt to speak muslims or other ethnic minorities anyway, thus probably xenophobic.

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    • Try trying to have a congenial conversation with Anjem Choudary,Abu Izadeen or any of his bodyguards and you would be a xenophobe in a trice!

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  3. It was Fox News, not CNN. Your link refers to Fox News but your text says CNN.

    I often head along to Bethnal Green, I was brought up there, and the nice Brick Lane Beigel Bake, selling bread in the best Eastern European Jewish tradition, has people of all races and cultures, including Muslims, queuing up for its wares. As for alcohol bans, it’s an area where pubs are springing up, if anything (though they are of the trendy type, not all good news!).

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  4. I realise that I will be pilloried on here but in the interests of complete FAIRNESS and FACTS which EBF must always propound in its blogs I would contend, there ARE so called “no go” zones in England.

    I post with examples: 12 January 2015 in the Times “Numerous rapes are not reported to the police in these zones because of local justice systems”-i.e Shari’a courts.Sir Tom Winsor,Chief Inspector of Constabulary-“There are some communities born under other skies who will not involve the police at all and authorities who are extremely reluctant to provide firefighting and ambulance services” Trevor Phillps, former Commissioner of Race Relations, Islam expert Andrew McCarthy, Michael Nazir Ali,former Bishop of Rochester and the Gatestone Institute in its report on 3 February 2015 have all alluded to these zones. In most cases it is not that non-muslims just are not allowed in these areas it is rather that they are very obviously made aware that they are not welcome and are very often subject to extremely unpleasant comments and insults e.g being called Infidels and dhimmies(second class citizens).

    The very existence of such areas/zones is anathema for normal,non violent,law abiding muslims who have very happily integrated and who have been born here who fully subscribe to everything we might hope for in a British citizen. However,they are pure propoganda for the BF and the sooner mosques call for them to be “opened” the better.If my post is also anathema to the author of this blog and he insists on removing it then so be it. .

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    • Won’t remove this as it’s on topic, David. We’re fine with differences of opinion. Not so happy with grandstanding which is why some (very few) of your previous comments were removed.

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      • Many thanks. Your reply clearly demonstrates the strength and probity of EBF that comments such as this one of mine can be accepted.

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      • ebfblogger, I obviously cannot speak on grizzlyvamp’s behalf but on reflection I very much regret and apologise for virtually monopolising the entire blog. However I believe it is an extremely important one and an extremely difficult one not to have very strong feelings and opinions on.

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    • I just googled (seeing as you didn’t provide us with citation) “the Times Numerous rapes are not reported to the police in these zones because of local justice systems”, and there’s a source from, none other than of course, The Daily Mail – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541635/Murders-rapes-going-unreported-no-zones-police-minority-communities-launch-justice-systems.html

      Sighing as I reluctantly skim over the article, I came across this which I will quote, “Senior police officers said they disagreed with the description given by Mr Winsor, who became chief inspector in October 2012. He is the first person from a non-police background to hold the post.
      But Chris Sims, Chief Constable of West Midlands Police, said: ‘I don’t know if he’s talking about Birmingham, but I have only had one conversation with him since he took office and it wasn’t about this.
      ‘His characterisation of these communities as born under other skies is just wrong. Many members of communities in Birmingham are British-born and I find that a very odd expression.’

      A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: ‘We all rely on the police to protect our communities and this can be only done through full co-operation and partnership.
      ‘Co-operation is particularly important for Muslim communities who have experienced a rise in Islamophobic hate crimes.’

      I think it’s a case of who to/not to believe. In any case, I’m pretty sure the populace perception of no-go areas came about after those footages of muslim patrols were recorded, which as we all know, ended badly for them. If any of it is still happening, then people really ought to report to the police as they will take action.

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      • Just because ONE senior policeman queries SIR Tom Winsor’s accurate comment about muslim so-called “no go” zones/areas it does not mean that it was incorrect. Such areas are invariably populated by muslims who either do not wish or intend to integrate and are in this country mainly to enjoy all the benefits(literally) of living in a modern democracy. It is laughable that Anjem Choudary and most of his closest followers live as far away from these areas as possible despite the fact that they house muslims for whom he is a hero! I myself lived and worked very close to Luton,the town where muslim fanatics reviled soldiers of the Anglian Regiment after its tour of duty in Afghanistan. Bury Park in Luton is an acknowledged “zone” and no white person would begin to risk walking through it at night. It is alright to state that “people really ought to report to police” but how can they take action when these communities just clam up on the “I am Spartacus” principle? This problem goes back many years before the al-Muhajiroun Muslim Patrol’s were active.

        As far as the Muslim Council of Britain is concerned there is a very large number of the muslim population that has an extremely poor opinion of it and anything it says even though THIS particular comment is spot on.

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  5. There are many “no go” areas for normal people in the UK

    (1) St George’s Hill Weybridge
    (2) Downing Street, doesnt matter who you vote for the same people stay in power
    (3) Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Balmoral etc
    (4) Eton and the like public schools
    (5) Oxbridge

    There are other global no go areas “Palestine if your a Palestinian” given Israel has stolen it but thats off topic.

    As for Muslim ghettos nope all I see is poor people in ghettos, farmed like chickens, some are battery hens some are free range but all are being farmed.

    As for these sad fools who play into the hands of the system hating others because of religion I feel very sorry for them:-

    What was it Malcolm X said about hating those being oppressed and loving the oppressors.

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  6. Thomas Merton I consider that your comment is laughable and ridiculous. We are talking here about no-go AREAS where people LIVE who present a “clear and present danger” For example, I know personally a number of very normal muslim families in St.George’s Hill Estate who by extremely hard and honest work have built up considerable businesses and could afford to live there. Are you just pillorying them because of jealousy which you have poured out on the other four in your post. The Queen inherited her palace and residences, they are not OWNED by her,only Balmoral Castle and Sandringham House.Your take on Downing Street is not even worthy of a comment. Very large numbers of Oxbridge undergraduates are nowadays often from comprehensives and on grants.

    Muslims do not NEED to live in no go zones and those who do are definitely not being “farmed” except by the many rogue property owning gangs who monopolise their homes. Our Government is very generous as far as benefits are concerned,Abu Hamza(Dr Hook)’s family still lives in a £1.25 million house and receives £ 650 per week in benefits. How on earth can you have the gall to call these musims “oppressed” There is no country in the world where muslims are better treated especially those who criticise almost everything it represents!!

    As far as your nasty and thoroughly biased and ignorant comment on Israel is concerned,I could reply KNOWLEDGEABLY , but I REFUSE TO GO OFF TOPIC!

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    • I’m having to reply here to your response to my post as there is no reply button to click. Honestly, this comment section is a bit of a pain in the arse! So anyway…

      I’m pretty sure the article was alluding to more than one police officers when it used “officers” in its plural form. And if he’s a fairly new policeman with no prior experience of being one, well then I think I would be more inclined to believe the “officers” and Chris Sims who probably know what they are talking about. To reiterate what I said though, it’s a case of the us individuals choosing who to believe to fit in with our views, I guess.

      To be honest, these no-go areas do probably exist, but only as a mentality as opposed to people actually enforcing “white brits not allowed here”. What I mean is, is as you said about the majority in some areas are populated by muslims and, if so, perhaps people who tend to feel comfortable around muslims/foreigners/brown people/whatever, would not ever feel inclined to go such areas. Perhaps feeling excluded (in their minds) and motivated by hatred, they will then exaggerate and claim that areas are no go for white brits. Tis just a though!

      Again, if people don’t report things, then nothing will get done. That should be obvious. Until there are actual facts about places being no-go, and not just personal anecdotes which I’m afraid don’t hold up (I could quite easily claim to have visited Bury Park in Luton with no trouble if I was so inclined to make up bullshit), then I will not fully believe there are no-go zones that are being enforced by a community of whatever.

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      • I just decided to do a quick google search on “evidence of no-go areas in the UK”, and everything regarding these mythical areas are only alleged, furthering my opinion that the areas only exist in ones xenophobic mind.

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      • Personally I am very grateful to read your most reasonable post. I do hope that my last post resonates with you at least somewhat? I can never get over though that it is muslims who rely so much on benefits and handouts as opposed to the vast majority of hardworking, peaceful and peace loving ones who so often criticise everything to do with this country.

        It is such anomalies which sticks in the craw of non-muslims AND muslims which arouse so much of the resentment.

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  7. grizzlyvamp I am posting again since I cannot find my reply to your last post. Very sadly, I doubt if we will ever agree on this blog or many others. In fact I believe that our very lengthy posts are actually putting off other would be posters. I have,like you I believe, a strong belief in my opinion,posts and comments on EBF and no intention of changing. I am absolutely confident that my view of the true “movers and shakers”on this blog are right and relevant. SO, I will wish you a very happy and fulfilled life and I really do look forward to your future posts not too close to the subject of THIS blog!

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  8. I would argue that there are “no go areas” in cities but they are estates in which anyone outside that small community tends to find themselves ostracised. These are just areas where outsiders aren’t made to feel welcome and tend to be residential areas such as council estates where I would argue this is most noticeable. However this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the people living in these areas being less than tolerant of strangers. Since you can argue that you shouldn’t be in residential areas unless you live in the area in the first place I suppose you could argue that that doesn’t count as a “no go area” in the context of what the blog is saying in which case there wouldn’t be no go areas. The fact of the matter is that these supposed areas in Birmingham or wherever in the UK just don’t exist and I agree with EBF’s conclusion that there are areas which are more dangerous than others for a number of varied reasons but there are no “no go areas” as such.

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  9. grizzlyvamp, I might as well go on to replying to your posts when they are disingenuous. Why do you think that all the eminent people I mentioned in my recent post are acknowledged experts on Islam? For what reason-and you deliberately avoided giving one- would “people living in these areas”be less tolerant of strangers” You are on particularly thin ice as to Birmingham is concerned. Actually, I reckon that if you were given an opportunity to confront the eminent people I listed in my post regarding your ideas they would tear you to shreds-not literally of course. Do you honestly believe that you know more than The Rt Reverend Bishop Michael Nazir Ali one of the greatest men ever to come from Pakistan and one of the only people who might be able to best Choudary in a debate?

    Why is it SO difficult for people and, almost certainly,many other EBF supporters to admit that this blog IS about religion/race rather than economic factors. Unless Christians,Jews,Hindus and Muslims learn how to live together and peacefully work out how to agree to disagree there will always be those who want to be “on their own and the others can +*&% off”. I believe that this idea would harm BF more than anything else I can think of-apart from EBF. Your very blatant reluctance to be specific and use words like” for a number of various reasons” and ” being less tolerant” when refraining from qualifying any of them just destroys your posts. All this must encourage many people to abandon religion entirely and I would sympathise.

    I hate the very word “religion”. My contention is that FAITH should replace it and would avoid much disharmony as it is a PERSONAL thing and should be treated as such and it would avoid the crowd effect which is so divisive and damaging.

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  10. A real faux pas on my part. I should have added the Sikhs to that list,a faith which has provided the British Army with many of its finest soldiers!!

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      • ebfblogger,in the interests of fairness and balance,Bosnian Muslims in WW2 formed the 13th Waffen Division(mountain infantry)of the SS Handschar(1st Croatian), approximately 15,000 men, of which sad to admit 3000 were Catholic. They signed a pledge loyal to Hitler. The Division earned a reputation for brutality and savagery and atrocities against Serb and Jewish civilians.

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        • Does it not matter that many more members of the Waffen SS professed to be Christian, David? Both religious groups have their share of atrocities. That doesn’t justify the hatred of all members of either religion.

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          • ebfblogger,please tell me where, in contradiction of my post,you state that”many more members of the 13th Waffen Division were Christian”. Please give me a reference for your comment.

            As a Christian I do get a whiff on here that Christianity loses out. Britain First is doing a real hacket job in promulgating that our religion hates muslims. Like other religions and none we understandably tend not to like Islam but not muslims per se.

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            • On the contrary, David – many of EBF are Christians, including on the Blog team.

              It does seem relevant though to point out that any argument made that attempts to blame Islam for the existence of the Waffen SS is equally valid for Christianity. Personally I don’t think that either religion can realistically be implicated in the existence of the SS but in the interests of balance it seems reasonable to point out that any argument implicating Islam is at least as true for Christianity. Fortunately such an argument would be nonsensical and superficial. That being so, there’s no reason to slight either religion in this way so far as I can see.

              There were white British Christians in the Waffen SS too, as it happens. Does that mean that all Brits should be held responsible for Hitler’s elite troops?

              Of course, my points/questions above may all be quite irrelevant. Assuming that this is the case can you perhaps enlighten me? What point did you hope to make by posting the comment linking Islam to the SS that doesn’t apply equally to Christianity?

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              • ebfblogger,in many ways I had hoped that you would have left my post without so much comment. I had not intended to post as I am now doing!

                On 11 April 2014, Hamed Abdel-Samad,a learned apostate from Islam now requiring round-the-clock security gave a now famous interview on ZDF a German public broadcaster. In a long interview he explained how he came to equate Islamism with Fascism, sometimes called Islamofascism.

                The estimable,atheist Christopher Hitchens commented on this as follows ” Both are bitterly nostalgic for past empires and lost glories. Both are obsessed with real and imaginary “humiliations” and thirst for revenge.Both are chronically infected with the toxin of anti-Jewish paranoia” In all conscience I cannot disagree.

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                • The late Christopher Hitchens, in his book ‘God is not great’ made the same arguments against Christianity as he did against Islam. His book also makes a very forceful and sensible distinction between Islam and Muslims, just as it does between Christianity and Christians. ‘God is not great’, like much of Hitchen’s work is extremely effective at both exposing the barbaric aspects of both Holy books whilst also acknowledging that many of their devotees are extremely peaceful, charitable and compassionate.

                  Once again it is clear that the arguments levelled against Islam are equally applicable to Christianity. Whether we choose to accept or refute those arguments is a moot point but it is undeniable that their validity (great or small) in terms of both religions remains equal.

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                  • ebfblogger, In PRACTICAL terms you are,with respect, way off the mark.

                    Christianity went through a violent, bitter and lengthy Reformation and the Thirty Years War and in the eyes of the vast majority of religious scholars made a very good fist of its new and excoriated identity and newly important place in the world. On the other hand Islam has in essence not changed one iota in 1400 and has totally revived the level of Jihad started only a few years after Muhammad’s death in AD 732 right through to the Gates of Vienna in 1673-900+ years of conquest and bloodshed making the ravages of Xerxes, Darius, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan and Tamerlane look like a pea-shooting contest.

                    “Perhaps the worst legacy of Muhammad was his insistence that the Qur’an was the literal word of God, and true once and for all,so closing any possibility for new intellectual ideas and freedom of thought that are the only way the Islamic world is going to progress into the twenty first century” Extract from the international best-seller “Why I am Not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq, a celebrated ex muslim.

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                    • I think the best thing is to let blog readers decide. I see no point in becoming embroiled in another long, ‘off topic’ discussion with you, David. I suspect that any reader who knows their history will recognise your cherry-picking of names and dates. Hopefully those who don’t know history will be prepared to accept that there is another historical side to Islam (Muslim Spain, the gentlemanly conduct of Saladin, The remarknbly tolerant treatment of the Christian Crusaders in Jerusalem and Antioch, Avicenna’s philosophy and theospohy, advances in medicine, architecture and mathematics way beyond those of contemporary Christendom etc, etc). I’m also confident that my interactions with you thus far have made my point about the difference between the cruel, ideological dogma of both religions and the attitudes of the majority of their followers.

                      I don’t propose to continue in this conversation with you, not least because past experience tells me that your contributions will quickly degenerate into a series of repetitive statements interspersed with insults which I have no intention of inviting.

                      I therefore suggest that we leave this exchange here, David.

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                    • ebfblogger, your otherwise useful but never convincing post was totally spoiled by your last sentence which merely demonstrated that my argument was more persuasive than yours. I do not need to insult you and never intended to.

                      Your strange revisionist recounting of the Crusades and your own cherry picking was typical of your responses to my posts.

                      The expulsion of the Moors from Granada in1492 ended virtually all and any achievement that Islam brought to the world.

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                    • With the greatest pleasure. I am delighted to find that the level of debate on EBF is extremely high in my opinion and tackling you is a real challenge.

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                    • ebfblogger, if you really want to highlight a race which has outdone all others from a relatively tiny population then look no further than that most hated by Islam.

                      From 1901-1990 Jews have been awarded 160 out of 660 Nobel Prizes(including 16 for Peace!) from a population of 13 million, 0.25% of 1% of the world’s population,far more than any other ethnicity. Jews have produced many of the worlds great philosophers/thinkers,Einstein(greatest mind of C20),Karl Marx and Freud, great composers and musicians,Mendelsohn, the Gershwins,financial and business people, the Rothschilds,Levi Strauss,, in art,entertainment,medicine,science, physics etc,etc Way beyond anything Islam achieved over many centuries. .

                      Israel, despite the Palestinians(Palestine being really JORDAN) promising to kill all Jews, is in the very forefront of the world’s technical achievements. In 2011 the Bloomfield Science Museum in Jerusalem exhibited 45 indispensable Israeli inventions. .

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                    • ebfblogger, I apologise again. One problem is that I never know which blogger is which? Could you bloggers not have an identity just like ebfnemesis??

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  11. David, for one I have friends who are white, Christians living in Birmingham and I don’t hear anything about these no go zones. Sure just like any city there are areas they avoid – especially alone and/or at night but that is a comment on society rather than the demographic. I am sure that these people you mention could intellectually tear me to shreds, I’m not afraid to admit that I am at the shallow end of intellect. Just because these high intellectuals say something does not make it true – learn to separate conjecture and opinion from fact. I have seen nor heard of any evidence of these “no go zones” and when I have heard something it has been from 2 or 3 years ago and quickly stamped out, I of course am referring to the “Muslim patrols” that Britain First love to bring up. I hear what you are saying about putting others off and our debate no doubt has put other posters off – appologise for that. You know my thoughts about your general stance and so shall leave it there.

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    • Ey, at certain times in the evening or early morning, I tend to avoid some areas where I live. If I spot a group of suspicious looking lads drinking and smoking, I will be sure to walk in another direction. I certainly wouldn’t claim them to be no-go areas though!

      I used to live down a road that was supposedly notorious for being a dangerous place for white brits to walk down (let alone live), due to the fact it is heavily populated with Portuguese people and eastern europeans. Never had any problems during the five years or so I lived there. In fact, the only commotion and trouble I ever saw was from brits (from hearing their accent anyway). Not to say that people from portugal or whever didn’t cause trouble, but if they did, I didn’t see/hear anything.

      It used to piss me off when people would talk about that road I lived down, saying it’s problematic area due to those “bloody foreigners”. Unsurprisingly, none of whoever mentioned it to me hadn’t lived there and were just obviously repeating what others had said. Of course, after informing them that I lived there without any problems, I would correct them out of exasperation.

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  12. Er, wrong or not I was actually referring to muslim zones, those inhabited by those who did not wish to and/or did not intend to, integrate. As far as I am aware there are not large non integrating Portuguese and even east european zones in the UK causing problems. It is not at all surprising when one knows a bit about Portugal’s history.The Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of Friendship of 1373,the oldest such treaty in the world, between King Edward iii and King Ferdinand and the great victories of the Duke of Wellington in the Peninsular War in the early C18 to rid Portugal of the French might just have an influence Terry would you not agree? Portugal is a favourite holiday destination for Brits also and they make a considerable contribution to its economy. It might have helped the ” bloody foreigners” no end if you had had this information and had disseminated it to the unpleasant Brits and you surely would not have been exasperated!!?

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    • Erm, well, thank you for that brief history lesson, David. Not sure if you noticed, but my post was a response to grizzly – specifically when he mentions places people avoid and conjecture; it just reminded me of a supposedly “dangerous area” where I once lived ,because of the populace there – which is somewhat relevant I think. It doesn’t matter if people claim areas are no-go because of muslims or portuguese, the point is is that it is all conjecture at least or hyperbole at best.

      I don’t think these unpleasant people I spoke with cared too much. They just wanted people to blame, vent out their hatred upon and as usual, it’s the minority that are the scapegoats. My news feed is evident of that no matter how many times I try and refute what gets posted.

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      • Terry,on reflection I owe you an apology, I was rude,something I dislike in myself very much. I reckon that I should read your posts more carefully as I just don’t understand where you are coming from sometimes or where you are going but that is probably my fault rather than yours.

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      • David, I live on the edge of a “Muslim community” and there are various reasons it is a community and it has nothing to do with integration. The reason there is a community there is because there is a mosque near by so is convenient to get to. There is a Muslim park however anyone is welcome to use it but predominantly used by Muslims. The park is Muslim because it is funded and maintained by the mosque which has numerous charities that go back into the community and some even work with some of the churches. The city I live in is multi-ethnic and multi-faiths and its issues go back far longer than open immigration to Eastern Europe which Britain First would have us all believe to be when all these issues kicked off. I won’t say any more as I don’t want to give my location away however I think I have made my point.

        Terry, I know exactly what you mean, where I grew up there was a rather serious issue of gang crime – not even from black or Asian youths but white – I bring that up only to illustrate a point about racism. When we moved to the area things were quite bad but through my teen years did get better though still has its issues much like any troubled area. What gets me most is the amount of intolerance people show towards each other when that intolerance is unneeded. But I digress so shall stop there.

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        • grizzlyvamp, as is often the case I really do fail to see the point of your latest comment. Are you expecting to be fulsomely praised for just living where you do? I am positive that your scenario is to be found in very many places in Britain and,naturally, I applaud that as any right-minded person would.However, I believe that my posts have demonstrated that there are no go areas,like Bury Park in Luton,a known hotbed of Islamic extremists and some who have been convicted and jailed. My use of that term is not meant that one cannot enter these areas but if they do and are white they can, and do, attract very unpleasant comments and antagonism and police are noticeable by their absence.

          I finally lost respect for your arguments when you made a remark about the five “experts” on Islam who had had the courage to say what they did about this problem and you made a fatuous dig at the most knowledgeable one, the great Pakistani former Bishop of Rochester Michael Nazir Ali and virtually indicated that your take on the subject was more relevant than his!!? Surely, the cancer on muslims and non muslims alike of these areas/zones//enclaves needs to be aired so that effective action to deal with them can be achieved?

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      • Really David, I can’t say I’m all that surprised you disagree however I thought my point would be quite obvious. I am of course looking for no recognition of where I live I merely used the example to point out that what your saying about Muslim communities simply isn’t true. Sure Muslims tend to form tight-knit communities but so do Christians. So do Black-Africans, Carribeans’, Polish, Asian and Caucasians. You only have to look at the student community or a reasonable modern church or even mosque to see members from all sorts of backgrounds getting on harmoniously. Point being the natural human default is to get on – only when prejudice and superstition come in do you start to see problems.

        As for this remark about five “experts” I remember making no such comment or if I did dismiss them it would probably have because they were irrelevant to the point being made. Also expert is a bit of a strange term – their are a lot of people I know who consider me to be somewhat of an expert in Physics (what my degree is in) yet amongst the wider community of physicists I would be considered a rank amateur with a barely adequate knowledge of the subject and frankly I would consider them far closer to the truth than my friends. Expert merely implies a certain level of knowledge on the subject and as I have pointed out before you are equating opinions and conjecture with facts. Anjem Choudary’s views on the Quran are based on the violent aspects of the book and used to justify his views on how the world order should be. He is very intellectual as you have pointed out but that doesn’t make him right or worth paying attention to. I will return to my earlier point that if he were to be left alone and ignored his power would all but cease because he no longer has the attention his power requires.

        As for your example of a place where white people would get unwelcome comments and antagonised there are many area like that. I have a friend of mixed-race background who lives (or lived not sure if they are still there or not but all the same irrelevant to the point being made) in a white, very conservative thinking, privileged area. By the time I knew them they didn’t have much of a problem however when they first moved to the area they experienced the same sort of unwelcome comments etc that you speak of. Point being that incidences like this occur all the time throughout the country and the equating factor is always the same – a small minority of people coming together to do everything they can to make outsiders feel as unwelcome as possible. It doesn’t make those who feel they can’t go to certain areas feel any better but it does not stop that it is just a minority that make them feel that way. True there is often a wider suspicion of strangers but again that is due to how society has evolved rather than a comment on individuals or groups of people.

        My point is that these areas are not exclusively “Muslim” and that it is a minority of people perpetrating this. Yourself admit that these extremists are in the minority by your use of the extremist. By very definition these action are extreme and therefore by extension out of the ordinary meaning that if these things you talk of were commonplace on a scale where we should worry then it would be considered normal and would not be considered extreme as these events are common occurrence. I have gone on long enough but have made my point so will leave it there.

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        • For your own sake I really do wish that you would not SO often shoot yourself in various parts of your body,particularly in the head! The experts or authorities on aspects of Islam and its adherents I mentioned all have an opinion and knowledge on the subject of this blog which utterly transcends your own and,frankly,renders it as not worthy of mention. As far as your view of Anjem Choudary is concerned it would be risible if it were not so wrong and dangerous. Most unfortunately for not only Britain and the right minded EBF bloggers he has tremendous influence on extremist muslims and is a horrible thorn in the side of everyone who does their utmost to create good relations between muslims and those of other faiths and none. Just for your edification one of his favourite quotations from the Qur’an is the one taught in the Trojan Horse schools in Birmingham and well reported on. Q5v51 ” Believers do not take Jews and Christians as friends.If anyone of you takes them then he is surely one of them.God will not guide unbelievers” He can quote other of the many violent verses and the amount of time he is given on TV in Britain, the USA even and France is frightening. His malevolent and hatefully divisive influence is every bit as dangerous and divisive as was Oswald Mosley and his Brownshirts. Shari’a law in its entirety which he so persuasively promotes for EVERYONE is a ghastly prospect for all normal, peaceable and peaceful muslims who have integrated so well here and faithfully respect and follow English Law.. I have highlighted in one of my posts(which you have ignored) the LIst of Muslims in Britain which contains literally hundreds of well-known and respected names across a very large range of categories.

          Now do come on old lad and let us both-and others on this blog-have some piece and quiet!

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      • David, that is your opinion of these people but you must forgive those of us who do not share your view on the matter. As for my views on Anjem Choudary and all such people you have spent all your time telling me that they are wrong and dangerous yet provided nothing close to evidence to the contrary of my view, just your assertion because these very clever people who are “experts” on the topic said something that remotely contradicts my view on the topic so I must therefore be wrong.

        All along I have been saying that those who want to impose the horrific rules on us all are in the minority.That is to say that the majority of us do not want to see Sharia law or action that results in violence and death. My point is that this means we only have to worry the minority. However we start paying attention to what these idiots are saying more of the majority are likely to start to wear down and start to listen and potentially believe what these people are saying which is incredibly dangerous. Currently that is not the case but with more and more people becoming open to your way of thinking you are becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, you repeatedly say this is going to happen therefore it does because you effectively make it happen, though it is a rather crass example but as I can’t think of better I would point you in the direction of Voldemort from the Harry Potter series (I will leave you to look up the example if your unfamiliar with the series) is an excellent example of what I am talking about. In other words I have seen nothing in your argument or the world to suggest my view to be anything more than idealistic and coming from a place of compassion, love and mercy even if I am not very good at displaying these qualities a lot of the time. I could quote numerous New testament passages that are in contention with modern thinking or are just unpleasant and even more if you start accepting the Old testament. However we digress from the topic at hand. I think I have exhausted my views on the issue so shall leave it there until the next blog.

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        • I cannot fail to see that there is no reference to my apology but I will leave comment on that.

          Yes I do believe implicitly in my comments about the influence of Choudary. If it were possible to malign such a fiend it could not be on his intelligence and learning which is comprehensive. I have not studied Islam extensively for 15+years via the Uthman Qur’an,the Hadith and Sunnah for nothing although the more I have learned from that book and many other great writers such as Ibn Warraq and Islamic scholars like Professor Sam Harris the more I fear Choudary and the ideology but sympathise hugely
          with muslims.Your comment on my influence on bringing the problem on is utterly disingenuous and frankly stupid. The “problem” is here and now and will grow unless and until we all take our heads out of the sand and work out a way to tackle muslim and other extremism effectively. I would ask any EBF blogger who reads this post of mine to put forward any ideas on this they may have.

          I suspect that few EBF supporters have read much if anything of an actual english language version of the Qur’an,.Have you? I strongly suspect that you have not. The penalty for apostates is death and in many Pakistani,Kashmiri and Bangladeshi areas/communities honour based violence,polygamy and forced marriages are quite common all influenced by Shari’a. EX Mayor(thank God) Utfur Rahman of Tower Hamlets flagrant favouritism towards his Bangladeshi community and excluding whites and muslims originating from other Islamic countries from his cabinet is a perfect example of how huge division can be created.

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      • Ok, as far as your apology goes it was made after I started making my previous reply so could not possibly have hoped to respond to it. Also I would point out that the apology was made on another post and so was acknowledged and responded to on that same post as is in line with general etiquette when I did read your apology. As for your remark made after my acceptance I shall leave it there as it serves no purpose to carry on responding giving the opportunity for the blog to be left there or more thoughts added if people so wish.

        Again you dismiss the crux of what I am saying without in anyway addressing the flaws of my views. You keep insisting that Anjem is dangerous and needs to be kept quiet. Well the fact is that he is restricted on how much he can actually express his views in the first place, and when he does organise demonstrations sees numbers comparable to what Britain First see at their own meetings. These are a small minority of radicals who are on the radar of the police and so are being monitored and will be stopped if there is any sign of trouble. It is just a shame that groups like Britain First and the EDL who are frankly equally dangerous to any of Anjem Choudary’s groups are not under similar restrictions. For all their belly aching Britain First still have far more rights and freedoms than Anjem Choudary and his followers have. You have not managed to in anyway debunk my assertion that Anjem and others like him’s power comes from people like yourself paying attention to him and if that attention left then that power would diminish. Unless I can be convinced that I am mistaken in this assertion I am never going to be convinced to consider your line of thought.

        For the purposes of burden of proof and easy reference I’ll reiterate my reasoning behind the assertion. Anjem has avoided jail by ensuring that whilst perhaps encouraging actions that break the law has never committed any of these actions himself as he knows the consequences of such actions. As such he requires followers willing to bring about the changes he demands. He also requires opposition to fight – in come the “far right”. Is it any wonder that anti-Britain First groups often bandy about the phrase “2 cheeks of the same arse” when talking about Paul Golding and Anjem Choudary? Why do you think Britain First keep on harping on about Anjem Choudary? It is because they need each other to carry on operating and no other reason. Therefore since men like Anjem Choudary and Jim Dowson are unwilling to risk out-right breaking the law and therefore require others to break the law for them to achieve their desired outcome. So by ignoring them you are giving them one less body to their cause. As for the minority that do listen and do act I have enough faith in our police and judicial system that they will be punished in accordance to our laws. Personally I find the TTP and TTIP (not sure if I have got the acronyms exactly right but I’m sure you’ll find what I am talking about) trade deals that have been kept very quiet and the revoking of the Human Rights Act our government is currently pushing through as far more serious threats to our freedoms and ability to access free medical treatment however I digress from a digression so will leave it there as those issues whilst serious have nothing to do with Exposing Britain First.

        As for your assertion about many of us here not having read an English version of the Quran I will have to agree. However many Muslims argue that any translation is not the true Quran and should be read in the Arabic in which it was written in. Many argue that much of the beauty and some of its meaning is lost in translation. Many acknowledge that the generally accepted English translation is a close representation of the original texts however any Muslim I have met will at least try and return to the original language and where that is not possible will either give a larger context to the passage or do their best to interpret what is said in a way we can understand that is true to the original language. But this doesn’t have anything to do with no go areas so kindly leave it there, I am sure there will be space to discuss these issues further in one of the other posts.

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        • grizzlyvamp, my remarkable patience with your utterly dotty and disingenuously ignorant knowledge of the huge support in numbers and effect that Choudary commands. is pretty well criminal. I have to say that so many of your posts would be SO much shorter and more to the point if you did not succumb to a boring degree of circumlocution and persfiflage. IMO no one has a right to hold your views without reading an English language translation of the ORIGINAL Caliph Uthman copy,plus the Hadith and Sunnah as I have almost throughout and your ignorance of the subject of the blog is highlighted by this.You are so taken up with your very obvious perception of the worth of what you have written that it blinds you to the fact that so much of it is tosh.

          I just cannot spend another minute putting you right as you have convinced me that you have a closed mind on the subject of this extremely important but difficult blog and that you are contributing absolutely nothing to putting forward ideas on how to tackle the problems it highlights. Goodbye.

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      • David, as to these large numbers you speak of please provide me with the numbers indicating just how large Choudary’s support is. You have not provided a single source to back up your claim and since the evidence of observation is all I have left and contradicts what you are claiming I have no choice but to disregard your claim unless you provide a credible source that can be verified to back your claim up.

        As for not reading the English translations – no I have not bothered looking that closely at the Quran however I have engaged in debate with Muslims, and have been exposed to many of them whilst at university and I am lucky enough to be able to consider them friends and frankly they deplore the likes of Choudary. I think the actions of my friends and much of what EBF and similar groups provide in terms of reports of Muslims speaking out against both Anjem Choudary and ISIS speak much louder than your 15+ years of study which (as previously stated) is nothing more than a confirmation bias project designed to “poof” your preconceived ideas of Islam. I am perfectly open to the idea that Islam is dangerous and in fact have acknowledged that it can be dangerous. I just have yet to see any hard evidence that Islam is significantly more of a threat than any other type of extremism.

        I will finish up by thanking you for bringing up that I am not the most articulate person in the world and struggle to be concise at times and have had this pointed out to me numerous times but last time I checked it was in no way illegal even if it can be annoying to some. As for your accusation of not adding any forward ideas on how to deal with the issues brought up in these blogs who are you to say I am not? If this is the case then I would welcome others in put on this. The only problem I see with my posts is a tendency to go off topic often addressing off topic criticisms you put on me or my views. I might as well also point out there have been a number of occasions where I have attempted to close the debate off and move on yet you have responded and responded in a way that I felt required addressing. Again we find ourselves off topic, I’m sorry about that. Until next time.

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        • First and foremost I am extremely confident that my studies on Islam have almost certainly placed me on as good or better footing than any blogger on EBF. I have read the experiences of and corresponded with two who are members of the Council of EX Muslims of Britain and have rejected orthodox Islam.Some of its many members have become Christians and many have become atheists.SO your description of my “poof” preconception is just another of the disingenuous and utterly ignorant comments which you sprinkle about like confetti. These former muslims have faced and still do face considerable hassle and even threats of violence from muslims like Choudary and Abu Izzadeen. They have said in their writings that orthodox Islam is just as,or even more dangerous than Communism, Fascism and Nazism. Look up their website and get rid of your dangerous ignorance!! Knowing now quite a lot about how your mind works there will be yet another objection from you to try to dismiss their evidence.The Council has very many distinguished members and you could enlighten yourself by attending one of their open forums.

          You just cannot bear to be bested in a debate or argument,resentment oozes from your every pore. Frankly I have come to the firm conclusion that I am just wasting my time and trouble on you. Before you drip back to me I would explain that “orthodox” or ulta-orthodox Islam is what Choudary follows.

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  13. ebfblogger, I have an ADMIN Report of 9 October 2012 which states that from calculations based on government statistics( I know ,I know) from tax revenues on “unproductive” muslims reached £13 billion per year. I do not expect that figure to be reduced because of continuing muslim immigration.

    I am not attempting to place any particular blame on “unproductive” muslims as there are plenty of unproductive non-muslims receiving benefits,just doing my best to be factual and answer your question.

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    • And how dovyou know that the ratio of ‘unproductive’ Muslims is statistically significant in relation to…

      A ‘Unproductive’ non-Muslims

      B People who complain

      C ‘Productive’ Muslims?

      Perhaps you could cite a source the rest of us could check. That way you might be able to elevate your claim above its current apparent level of unsupported prejudice.

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      • ebfblogger I do not intend to respond to ANYONE who is so obviously just egging me on. I am not at all prejudiced I just believe in fair comparisons as and when they are required and necessary.I am unused to CLAIMING anything I have researched just pointing it out. I would strongly suggest that you are merely prejudiced against anything I post.

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        • I’m just intrigued to know how stats on tax revenue can reveal information on ‘unproductive’ people. I’m also unsure of the mechanics of data collection and disemination that would specifically identify the distinction of religious groups in commenting on ‘unproductive’ tax-payers. Could you provide your source please? Far from being prejudiced against you, I’m giving you a chance to justify what appears to be a very self-contradictory claim.

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          • I am merely quoting what I remember of the report. I may well have got the words in the wrong order but the £13 billion definitely referred to the COST of the benefits.

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              • ebfblogger.My final words on this tedious exchange.Reference ADMIN ,9 October 2012 on google which I gave in a previous post.

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                  • It’s very obvious that you only really pour scorn on articles which don’t suit you. I suspected that nazis and the media would be blamed. Perhaps Beano would be more up your street!

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                    • I’m merely hoping that you’d back up your claims, David. You’ve already admitted that you may have misremembered. I found the article on several Nazi blogs but oddly enough not by googling ‘ADMIN 9th October 2012’. Remarkably the Nazi sites do state that govt. Stats are inadequate to confirm your £13 billion figure.

                      I’m sure an educated man such as yourself will appreciate my wish to check these alleged ‘facts’. You made the claim readily enough, David. Why the reluctance to provide evidence for it?

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                  • I forgot to comment that you come across as a rabid far-left probable UAF supporter and a fan of wee Georgie Galloway the Leader of the least. Respected political party since God knows when.

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  14. Terry please for your own sake dont’ display your silliness further than sense can stand! I gave a reference for the £ 13 billion.

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  15. To take this back to the original blog about no go areas. All urban areas have parts where it is unwise to go but they are not exclusively Muslim nor official policy.
    In the 1920s, birkenhead was so lawless the police went on strike. Hence the existence of no strike clause now. There are parts of the dingle in Liverpool where you don’t go into a pub without a local. It’s an Irish area.
    There are parts of Glasgow where your religion definaty defines where you can go. Just like Londonderry/Derry and Belfast.
    In Chester you can’t drink alcohol in the street inside the city walls. An alcohol no-go zone. Due to fights between squaddies and locals.
    You know that some areas are safer than others.
    I have only been scared once – in a pub in a town in west Cumbria. I was quizzed about not being local.

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    • Carol, I take you comment on board and you make an excellent argument. But as you will see from my earlier post on my own experiences, I and the authoritative sources I named,especially the very eminent Pakistani born Former Bishop of Rochester Michael Nazir Ali, have a strong case that in major cities and towns like Luton,Bradford,Birmingham,Rotherham,Leeds etc there are zones/areas where like your “parts of Glasgow”whites are not welcome. An alcohol no go zone will not will not directly threaten you by unpleasant attitude or insults. For a white woman,even accompanied by a man, to walk through the Bury Park estate in Luton in a normal British blouse and skirt would definitely not be a good idea I can assure you.

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      • David, the only ‘no go’ zone you identified specifically was ‘Bury Park’ in Luton. I’d assume that such an area would not support many pubs as patrons would be unable to enter Islamic ‘no go’ areas. So using pubs as a guide I did a quick google search. Try it. Just search “Bury Park, Luton, pubs”. It’s truly amazing how many drinkers there must be given the amount of pubs in this allegedly ‘Sharia controlled, no go’ area, don’t you think?
        https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-hms-tef-gb&source=android-browser&q=bury+park+luton&gfe_rd=cr&ei=zU1jVZKcLM-q8wemwICwCA#q=bury+park+luton+pubs

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        • ebfblogger,you are a great one for statistics and you must know the famous saying”lies,more lies and statistics” which I have found applicable so often. If you really want statistics and much learned evidence I would point you to a long and extremely detailed report of 5 February 2015 “European No-Go Zones: Fact or Fiction Part 2:Britain. by Soeren, Kern distinguished Senior Fellow of the Gatestone Institute. I could not possibly add anything to what he reports. The fact that you would consider Kern a right-winger does not I contend damage his extremely careful evidence which is IMO very fairly balanced.

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        • ebfblogger, there are also many pubs in Tower Hamlets and there are parts of that borough which do not tolerate alcohol so where does that leave the argument??

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            • ebfblogger,well like Don Quixote I suggest that you thoroughly enjoy tilting at windmills. Have you read Soeren Kern’s Report yet?

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              • Still waiting for you to send me a link to it. I just researched the think tank. Interesting they’re described as neo-conservative and Islamaphobic and seem quite cosy with Geert Wilders. As it happens I distrust think tanks as a matter of course, to be honest. Reliance on think tanks to be unbiased and fair is another of the far right myths you’ve inspired me to write about with your comments as it happens.

                But send me a link and I’ll read it (with my baloney detector on yellow alert of course).

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                • ebfblogger,arguing or debating with someone with an entirely closed mind is something I refuse to do as it is utterly pointless and self-defeating and extremely boring.

                  With as much respect as I can muster and on past evidence I would much prefer to rely on the distinguished authorities on Islam which I have enumerated before on this blog which have spoken at length on this subject. Another one was Lord Ouzely the former Chairman of the CRE.Of course if you firmly believe that your experience and vast knowledge on your blog is superior to their combined experience I must of course congratulate you!

                  My opposite opinion to yours does not make me happy.The situation just needs to be recognised and dealt with so that it does not provide the deplorable BF with any more ammunition.

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              • Ah. Found it. Read it. Not well researched at all. Rehashing media driven exaggeration with a right wing bias. The only reliable info is that Ofsted were investigating (which they would given the media attention). No evidence that it’s actually true or (crucially) that any such plot could work in UK. In fact, should such a dubious plot exist at all the fact that it’s all over the press and Ofsted are involved would demonstrate its hopelessness.

                My view is that this rather superficial rehash of reactionary press reports has no substance but an awful lot of bias. I post the link so that others can make their own minds up rather than just accept your view that it’s well-researched and balanced. Clearly, I think it’s neither.

                http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4273/uk-islamic-takeover-plot

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                • ebfblogger,you come across as an extreme left -winger who just cannot accept ANYTHING even a fraction right of centre. I have come from an environment which believes that Communism killed far more than ever has Fascism and which never trusted anything left of centre. I do try to steer a middle course but the cynicism and total non acceptance of right wing academics just weakens your position in my eyes. “Methinks you do protest too much” with apologies to the Bard.

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                    • ebfblogger, however much scorn and cynicism you can pour on respected right-wing authors it does very definitely not make you right.

                      I will not bother to reply to any more of your comments on THIS blog as I am sure that we will cross swords more productively on others!

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                    • Pointing out the mediocre rehash job you posted as evidence is not pouring scorn and derision on ‘respected’ right wing authors. It’s simply acknowledging the superficiality of the supposed ‘evidence’.

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                    • ebfbllogger, the very thing Kern’s report was not was superficial. You just cannot accept that ANY opinion which disagrees with yours has any validity.

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                    • I posted the link a few comments ago so we’ll let other blog readers decide for themselves shall we? We’ve both made our opinions known. You think it’s well researched. I think it’s superficial old rubbish. No need to keep restating it.

                      I’m sure EBF followers are able to decide for themselves. 😉

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                    • ebfblogger,have you watched any of the videos connected with the Report? The one about Blackburn is convincing I contend. The sooner we admit that the problem exists the sooner sensible and effective measures can be put in place to remedy it.

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                    • Which ‘problem’ do you mean? The one about a small number of extremists that are getting nowhere because UK and European law prevents their advancement or the false, exaggerated ‘problem’ of no go areas fuelled by hysterical right wingers?

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                    • No wonder that we don’t agree as I believe that weak minded left wingers have some daft and dangerous agenda to prevent a growing problem from being better known.

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  16. Carol, I should have pointed out that the zones I have mentioned are those where almost exclusively, the most orthodox muslims live who have immigrated from Pakistan,Kashmir and Bangladesh who desire to live under Shari’a laws and customs and prefer not to integrate.

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  17. I can only talk about Birmingham of those listed. When I lived there handsworth, lozells, nechells and Newtown were regarded as no go areas. Very run down. I lived in Newtown and was perfectly safe.
    I also spent time in balsall heath (good curry houses) and lived on the border of balsall heath and Moseley.
    The area around the bull ring was a bit nasty.
    I was back there this weekend and how different it is. Open and welcoming. Full of people of all nations, all getting along.
    I feel obliged that the only real atrocity ever carried out in Birmingham was by the ira. A terrible business.
    As I say all cities have bad areas. One source of this idea of Birmingham being no go for whites came from a resident of castle vale. I wouldn’t walk round there and I’m white. As he says – it’s what and who you know.
    The danger is that if we accept this myth, then a self-fulfilling prophecy occurs and we become like the US.

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  18. Carol, another interesting post from you. I very much doubt if even with your experiences of Birmingham you have ever found yourself in one of the zones/areas I have described. These are those made up almost exclusively of orthodox muslims who do not wish or intend to integrate and use Shari’a law to resolve disputes rather than English Law and generally come from areas of Pakistan where the Taliban hold sway and where Malala Yousafsai was shot in the head as a warning against muslim women receiving education. So, these areas/zones I would suspect are very different to those you have experienced.

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    • Do you have any statistics to support your claim that ‘These are made up almost exclusively of orthodox Muslims who do not wish or intend to integrate and use Sharia law to resolve disputes rather than English law…”? I ask because I know Birmingham rather well and I don’t recognise your comments here at all.

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  19. ebfblogger,I am glad that I checked the reference you posted on my insistence that muslim no-go areas existed. The reference you gave was ANOTHER Soern Kern report. European No Go Zones: Fact or Fiction Part 2: Britain,published on 5 February 2015 is the one I referred to.

    Shall I accept that your mistake was merely a slip of the mind? Most unfortunately my computer skills are just typical of my generation so that I find it so difficult to give exact references as you can..

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    • First umpression is that there is much to criticise here, David. But it’s long so I’ll take a bit of time and provide a rhorough response in a few days. I’ll need to do some research regarding the specific claims and anecdotes.

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      • ebfblogger, I am very grateful that you will give much of your time to this report when I believe that you are so busy on other blogs and comments. I am confident that you will give a fair and measured response.

        It was never my intention to question your motive in initiating this blog and I only wish that everything you said was a fact. Sadly I am convinced that my evidence just highlights the opposite, a problem which needs to be tackled by our Government,the police, “moderate” mosques and individuals,bodies like the Quilliam Foundation,responsible media( thin on the ground) eminent muslim MPs like Sajid Javid etc,etc and EVERYONE who is committed to opposing the BF,EDL,the BNP and Choudary and his thugs and denying them any oxygen!

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        • I think at heart we have very different thresholds for what is convincing and what is not, David. I have seen lots of people provide mere anecdote instead of evidence for no go areas. These anecdotes then become material for right wing think tanks to report upon, thus providing an illusion of ‘balance’ without actually ever going beyond the original superficiality. I’ve planned a post outlining the problem with think tanks (of all political/ideological persuasions) as a result of many of your other comments but that can wait a little while. I want to tackle this ‘report’ first.

          I’m happy to devote time to the EBF Blog as I’m not involved in any other and I think the growth of Islamophobia is an important issue that we must address.

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          • ebfblogger,Islamophobia is an all-the-rage subject right now. I believe that the correct term for it is “an IRRATIONAL fear of Islam”

            I firmly believe that Ed Miliband actually put off a significant number of potential Labour voters by his ludicrous promise to criminalise Islamophobia if Labour came to power. How on earth can a FEAR of Islam be criminalised. I very much agree with you on this as the word is exactly what provides BF and the other right wing groups I have mentioned before with so much ammunition.

            Education on Islam,even without omitting or downplaying its often violent message, is essential even if for many young,impressionable,easily led muslim youths and young girls it might most unfortunately be too late. Islamophobia is also in my opinion an insult and a huge burden on the vast majority of British muslim citizens just doing their best to live quietly, peaceably and enjoyably with all non-muslims of any colour, faith and none.

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  20. ebfblogger,I realise from your recent post that you are extremely busy,but have you had an opportunity to read the Gatestone Institute no go zones article I posted on 26 May and if you have what you thought of it?

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