It’s no great surprise that the UK is becoming more violent and aggressive toward ethnic minorities. There’s a rising tide of hatred, a fire fuelled by far right organisations like Britain First that blames immigrants, ethnic minorities and all non-Christians for the problems of UK.
Britain First revels in this racist foam fest. It’s their bread and butter. The more fear and hatred they can create the more money they can con from their misguided, paranoid followers. So they spend their time creating posts that demonise ‘the other’. They radicalise their followers, turning them into violent and prejudiced foot-soldiers in a domestic, religious war that never really existed.
It’s true, of course, that Muslim extremists exist. It’s also true that a small number of these misguided individuals hail from the UK. But it’s not true that all British Muslims are secretly plotting to overthrow our nation and its laws. Nor is it true that people with dark skins are inferior or antisocial.
Recent hate crime figures suggest that the opposite is true. The greatest danger facing our society comes not from Muslims or brown people – it comes from the increasingly radicalised white, Christian population. This is the demographic that Britain First appeals to and it seems that, toothless though the organisation itself is, the Biffers are making an impact. It’s hard to believe but these anti-Islamic comments from Biffers on Facebook match perfectly the anti-Semitic propaganda of mid twentieth century Nazi Germany.
Their hate-filled propaganda is destroying our society. Their lies are turning our once safe nation into a cess pit of intolerance and hostility. Their selfish quest for money depends entirely upon the fear and misery they create for so many of our fellow citizens.
There is a race related issue to attend to in the UK. There is a very real problem and it’s important that citizens of all creeds and colours are able to identify its source. The problem is not Islam. Nor is it immigration or ethnicity. The problem is far right neo-Nazi ideology, complete with racist overtones and violent religious intolerance.
A large part of the problem is Britain First!
ExposingBF Blog 
I must take strong issue with this blogger. I am very happy to state that I am a Christian albeit a very flawed one. The cornerstone of our Lord Jesus Christ’s message to the entire world is the love which one human being must have for another. His wonderful Sermon on the Mount is unarguably the greatest guide in the history of man as to how to be and how to live one’s life.Who else has ever said ” But I say unto you,love your enemies,bless them that curse you,do good to them that hurt you and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you”. Is it Christ’s and Christianity’s fault that for over 2000 years many individuals and armed groups have abused his message??
It is utterly wrong and extremely unfair to state that ” the increasingly radicalised white Christian population…..” Christians have been persecuted and killed in their MILLIONS ever since its founder died. At this particular time it is without a shred of doubt Muslims who are doing the killing.Throughout the middle east churches are being desecrated sometimes with their congregations in them! They are not permitted to be rebuilt. Christians have never in hundreds of years been “radicalised” simply because there is nothing radical about Christ’s message. Can the author of this blog point out to me where WHITE Christian mobs are rioting, burning our national flag,insulting our troops or police,grooming young girls for sex, killing for posting cartoons and going on the rampage against anyone and everyone who insults their Prophet and/or Allah??
No religion ever followed in the world,Confucianism,Buddhism,Judaism,Sikhism,Hinduism and Zoroastrianism has had such a peaceful, loving foundation. Christ also said ” Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy” and ” Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God” In the Qur’an the well known Sword Verse,Sura 9.5 clearly states “When the sacred months are over then slay the idolators(non muslims) wherever you find them,arrest them,besiege them,lie in ambush everywhere for them”
I take no pleasure criticising Islam but the author’s blog is built on the shakiest possible foundations and it is radical Islam which is causing the problem. BF is merely another of THOUSANDS of groups and individuals throughout the history of the world which/who have hijacked Christianity and twisted and abused it for their illegitimate ends and BF is assuredly another one. Finally, is it not extremist muslims like Anjem Choudary and Abu Izzadeen,extremist mosques and the many violent verses in the Qur’an which are the “problem”? I do not see or hear of white radicalised Christian individuals or extremist churches, certainly in the UK, but I will bow to this blogger if he can prove me wrong.
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I think the statistics, along with the propoganda from the ‘Christian’ Britain First organisation justify my point quite well enough David.
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This took less than a minute to find David. It’s not UK based but then neither are most of the atrocities that Biffers complain about. Our domestic problem is generally related to less extreme but equally religiously and/or racially motivated hate crime.
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Thank you for your response but,frankly,I must say that I believe that your blog involving such blatant cririticism of white Christians is most unfortunate. If we were having a private discourse on this subject I would be asking for an apology to the 2.2 billion Christians in the world,the vast majority of whom never take militant action even when huge numbers of their brethren are being abused,insulted,killed and their creator mocked and vilified. Have you ever had a look at JIHAD WATCH. Robert Spencer I am certain you would dismiss but his reports on militant Islam are extremely well researched. You will be pleased to learn that unless you have any STATISTICS from the UK to provide us I will desist from posting again on this subject. I was very surprised that you had to go to such lengths as to use the example of a Christian nutjob from 3000+miles away of whom less than 0.01% of the UK population has any knowledge to prove your point.Finally Geert Wilders’s very short film Fitna created a huge ruckus but there were no riots or commotion when the Life of Brian was shown in many countries.
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The post was about domestic hate crime. You introduced an international theme and I responded in kind, David.
I believe that my post was both accurate and balanced. I agree that it is no more reasonable to accuse all Muslims because of the barbarous passages in their holy book than it is to accuse all Christians because of the barbarous passages in theirs. However it remains true that many who define themselves as Christian are committing hate crimes here in UK and that this phenomenon is on the rise.
However – since I’ve no intention (or need) to produce further statistics than those linked in the original blog I’ll assume that you’ll keep your promise and that our discussion on this topic is therefore over. Thanks for your input though.
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Further to ebfblogger’s reply, the KKK is perhaps the best known organisation to use Christianity to justify its racially and religiously motivated crimes, http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Klu_Klux_Klan . The following publication from the Southern Poverty Law Centre provides a of list plots and acts of domestic terrorism carried out since the 1995 Oklahoma bombing by McVeigh and Nichols by US extreme-right organisation many of which consider themselves Christian, http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/publication/terror_from_the_right_2012_web_0.pdf .
Study the Facebook pages of Britain First and Knights Templar International and you will find that both use Christianity, albeit a distorted version of Christianity, to justify the vilification of people of other races and faiths, in particular Muslims. Check out the profiles of their supporters and a significant number, both in the US and the UK, see themselves to be Christians, of those many belong to non-mainstream churches, including those which believe that we are entering the End Times. And Dowson, Golding, Fransen, along with a number of the leadership team and main activists, profess themselves to be Christians and use their “Christian” identy to justify their hatred of all who are not white or Christian.
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ebfnemesis I am very surprised that a blogger of your undoubted eminence is jumping onto the bandwaggon of the virtual execution job on Christians and Christianity. I have repeatedly asked the creator of this blog for STATISTICS and CONCRETE EVIDENCE of white Christian violence and radicalisation in the UK or indeed around the world, but my requests are in vain. Robert Spencer’s statistics and reports on militant Islamic atrocities and fervent radicalisation throughout Europe whilst I am sure most unwelcome on here are very well researched. I am positive that you would contend that extremists like Anjem Choudary and Brusthorn Ziamani are not true muslims despite many passages of the Qur’an which indisputably indicate that they are. Conversely, the words and deeds of fringe “Christians”in the BF and,certainly the KKK(3000-5000 miles from the UK) are in every word Christ uttered on the Sermon on the Mount seen clearly to be categorically NOT Christians. It is a sad FACT that all the so-called “moderate” muslims in the UK would be given a death fatwa for apostasy by the likes of Choudary if Islam ever took over this country, together with the imposition of shari’a law which a huge majority of muslims in the UK dislike and utterly reject.
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That’s called the No True Scotsman fallacy, David. “They can’t be Christians if they act that way,” but assuming all Muslims are all acting in accordance with their laws when they do the same.
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I would challenge you to produce these “statistics” and out of a UK population of some 70 MILLION BF is hardly making the merest pinprick of awareness! For any possible statistic of yours I could very easily produce evidence and statistics for Islam’s militant influence and killing and plotting in many countries around the world. I believe that I have established my point without question.
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I think we must agree to disagree then David. I see no compelling evidence that would amount to you proving your point ‘without question’. It’s true that BF is relatively toothless but the ideas it propagates are insidious and extremely destructive. Domestic hate crime is on the rise as a direct result of religious intolerance and BF clearly fuels that. They’re not profiting from it as they would like but their insistent, interminable presence on social media is still radicalising UK citizens, in spite of the organisation’s inability to capitalise upon their distortions.
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Stating that militant Islam is murderous does not let militant Christianity off the hook for being less successful. If Golding had his way he too would be beheading in the streets.
The simple truth is that both Islam and Christianity, being cults of worshipping a particular human who claimed to speak for a god, are inherently violent in doctrine should one choose to read the scripture looking for justification of violence. It is irrelevant to say, oh, Mohammed and Jesus promoted peace. The centuries of violence and indoctrination put the lie to that platitude.
The worship and schism of a theistic desert cult is dominating our world, and while it is true that some find solace and spiritual fulfillment in the words of these old books, we would all be better off if you kept your delusions to yourselves- Christian and Muslim alike.
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Your “simple truth” about Christianity is thoroughly disingenuous.Both distinguished ancient historians,Josephus the Jew and the Roman Tacitus writing not long after Jesus’s death and resurrection attested to many recounts of these facts. Only the OLD Testament is violent. Jesus was GOD made man and was deliberately made human in order that sayings about his life,ministry,death and resurrection in the books of the prophets Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah writing HUNDREDS of years before Christ would be proved correct. Just because you come across as a rabid atheist or agnostic please do not believe that your stance on this subject has much validity.
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I just saw this. Josephus was a scion of a Roman dynasty, if memory serves. Prove that Jesus existed, was god (small g) or any of that other stuff.
How can one be a “rabid” non-believer or “i’m not sure-er”? It’s not a matter of belief whether my preference for evidence has validity, it’s called logic.
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You won’t get a response now, mate. EBF banned him for antagonising comments.
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That and abusive threats and generally trolling.
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It’s hard for one to not invoke Godwins Law when the similarities are clearly evident. Just swap the words jews for muslims and gas chambers for [insert type of weapon to be carried out when committing genocide] and voila. The red mist that looms over them is clearly blinding them to the propaganda.
It’s an unfunny irony when one of the commenters refer to to muslims as backward rats and barbarics, then in the same breath advocates killing them. I just hope they are keyboard warriors’ whose threats are empty.
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Godwin’s law doesn’t apply when they really are Nazis!
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Haha yeah true! Badly dressed ones at that!
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*rats* (I wish there was a way to edit posts)
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Don’t fret Terry – I edited it for you 🙂
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ebf blogger my promise to you,of course,does not preclude my replying to other posts I assume,but I am grateful to have to my own satisfaction been allowed to have more than proved my point.I just hope that you have not opened a can of worms.It is a very good thing that this subject cannot be debated outside the EBF.Mike Godwin’s “Law”is I believe has considerable credence. I do contend that this thorny subject requires at least a more than passing knowledge of the Qur’an,Hadith,Sura and Sunnah to make truly credible comments on here. I quote Samuel Huntington’s words from his internationally celebrated book “The Clash of Civilisations”. Western ideas of individualism,liberalism,constitutionalism,human rights,equality,liberty,the rule of law,democracy,free markets,the separation of church and state often have little resonance in Islamic,Confucian,Shinto,Hindu,Buddhist or Orthodox cultures” e.g No Islamic state has ever fully complied with the 1948 UN Declaration on Human rights.
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I think that you will find that this subject is not exclusive to EBF, the issue of religiously motivated hate crime and domestic terrorism is highly relevant to the times in which we live and to ignore the role of Christian extremism in perpetrating hate crimes and domestic terrorism is to ignore part of the problem. As is to ignore the way in which organisations like Britain First, Knights Tempar International and its merchandising arm, Lionheart GB, are using Christianity and Britain’s Christian heritage to deliver a message of fear and hatred which has already led to what many would consider religiously motivated acts of intimidation and risks leading to acts of violence from their supporters. Do read the posts and comments on the Britain First, Knights Templar International and Lionheart Facebook pages and come back and tell us whether you still consider this post to be ill judged. Just as Muslim extremists are a tiny minority of Muslims so are Christian extremists but both have the potential and have proved to present a risk to the countries and societies in which they live.
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Whether or not the likes of the EDL or Britain First are genuine Christians is irrelevant. They claim their actions are based on Christian values. Exactly the same as IS claim to act in the name of Islam. Both religions have been hijacked and abused by groups whose actions are contrary to the teachings of he religions in whose names they act on behalf of.
Both EDL and Britain First are staunchly even fanatically patriotic, this places them into the category of Nationalists. Again similar to the Islamic extremist groups who want their own state/nation etc.
Every religion has it’s extremists and Christianity is no exception, just look at the recent actions of the Christian militia in CAR or the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda. Both Bush and Blair claimed to have been guided by God when authorising the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Are these extremist actions compatible with the associated religions? No they aren’t but the perpetrators believe they are or at least tell everyone else they are.
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EXTREMISM is the word you are both looking for(Used at last in the latest post). The vast majority of adherents to all religions are friendly peac-loving people who just wasnt to live their lives worshipping their own deity without interference. Stop arguing across a non-existent fence.
A HUMANIST.
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Hi Caroline. We’re not arguing over a non existent fence at all. There is no fence and no argument to speak of. There is simply the reality that some people are committing crimes in the name of religion and that this hate crime is being fuelled by the likes of Britain First.
I for one see no reason to equate the self-identification of religiously motivated criminals with the religion in question, be that religion Christianity, Islam or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Caroline,my most esteemed younger brother is a committed Humanist and I have the hugest respect for those who are. For very many good reasons the number of secular Humanists is growing apace in very many countries in the world-particularly in Islamic ones although they would be considered apostates ready for death.
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And no, I didn’t choose that avatar.
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ebfnemesis and BF signify a mere tiniest pinprick in any comparison of rogue Christian versus Islamic ultra orthodox violence and intimidation. I have had a good look on Wikipedia on KTI and Lionheart but their audience plus the BF’s is minute compared to that of ISIS,Al Qaeda,Boko Haram,Al Shabaab,Al Nusra Front,Hamas,Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood and CAIR(Council on American-Islam Relations) a known offshoot of the Brotherhood. I find it quite disgusting to find that Obama is a closet racist and muslim apologist despite his claim that he is a Christian. I thank God for David Cameron’s recent statement that Britain is a Christian country and that SO many Christians revolt from violent actions or words against the followers of all the major world religions.
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You’re quite right that BF don’t compare to ISIS. Folding’s tin pot organisation pales away by comparison. However the original post didn’t attempt to make any such comparison. It simply made the fairly obvious link between BF’s propaganda and the increase in domestic hate crime.
The rest of your comment above is essentially subjective and relates to your own ideology. I won’t attempt to argue there either. I’ll simply acknowledge that you and I come from rather different opinions and leave it at that.
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Religion should not slip into politics at all. David Cameron does not represent the majority of the country – http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/04/as-cameron-says-uk-still-a-christian-country-62-percent-tell-yougov-they-are-not-religious
Once the older generation dies, I believe we’ll start seeing a drastic decline in worshipers. I think people are starting to let go of such archaic notions as scientific discoveries are made and technology advances.
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ebf I meant to place a comma after your name on my latest post.Please accept my apology!!
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It is entirely possible to list and relist groups that base themselves in a religious vein. We can discuss the Christian militia groups that are regarded as dangerous in the US, the militant Christian anti-abortion groups that kill, the Lord’s resistance army, the Serbians who killed in the name of Jesus, Christian voice and their rather unpleasant views re homosexuality, and so on ad nauseum. You will deny their significance and insist only Islam is a violent religion. I will argue that all religions have extremist groups who wreak violence and harm on others.
Why repeat those unpleasant things about Barack Obama? They add nothing and are undermined by his actions. The bushes have the stronger links to a Muslim nation, to whit Saudi Arabia.
It is inarguably true that hate crimes are increasing and increasingly being targeted towards Muslims and other recent immigrant groups. The posturing of groups such as bf give such views a legitimacy that they don’t deserve.
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The number and dangerous Christian militia groups in the USA(and you entirely fail to provide names and statistics) pale into insignificance to the terrorist groups I have listed in my posts. Also, there are many MILLIONS who think-and many of them are convinced and have stated- that Obama is at least a muslim apologist,an awful thing to be as an American President.Just regard his huge reluctance to tackle ISIS effectively. Please have a look at the website, Jihad Watch of Robert Spencer an acknowledged expert on Islamic terrorism as is Professor Sam Harris who has calculated that militant Islam since AD732(Muhammad’s death)has killed 250+million non-muslims in very many parts of the world. QED.
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Man, you’re still urging people to have a ganders at jihad watch. I told you before that the website exists to incite hatred as Robert Spencer is clearly islamophobic and is criticised for being so. For a seemingly intelligent man, I’m baffled to why you would get some of your information from such a biased website.
Telling people to absorb info from that site is about as much use as telling you to have a look at this site – http://spencerwatch.com/ and take it all in.
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I read about Robert Spencer in Spencerwatch a LONG time ago. If his FACTUAL accounts of Islamic terrorism were unfair or untrue then I would not read them. Spencerwatch has tried furiously to discredit him but almost never “outed” him however much they have tried.
May I suggest that you have a butcher’s at some of his videos and where he debates so-called “expert” muslim imams and scholars and makes mincemeat of them to the extent that they are regularly reduced to shouting and yelling at him because he has a greater grasp of their ideology and the contents of the Qur’an,Hadith,and Sunnah than them! If it is biased to thoroughly dislike an inherently extremely violent ideology then I am biased too. As I have stated many times on this site there is a HUGE difference between disliking a huge number of followers of something and hating that something,Islam or whatever.
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Terry would you admit that it is entirely possible to be Islamophobic-or anything else”phobic” but be able to produce FACTS to support why you have that phobia? Robert Spencer is doing exactly that.
Quite understandably,Spencer,who concentrates on the blight of Islamic terrorism is consistent in continuing to demonstrate the Islam is NOT a religion of peace. Sir Winston Churchill,generally considered the greatest ever Englishman ,based on his extensive experience of Islam,produced many facts derogatory to that ideology. Was he an Islamophobe in your opinion?
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David. Please desist. This post about the rise in domestic hate crime is not the platform for you to repeat your previous assertions about global Islam. Nor is it an opportunity for you to lecture us about your view on a foreign president. Believe me – you have made your point, irrelevant to the discussion at hand though it is.
The fact that nobody here has agreed with your claims does not mean that you need to repeat them ad nauseum – it simply means that very few people reading this blog agree with you.
This blog is intended to expose Britain First – not to provide you with a soapbox for your own vendettas against Islam or the democratically elected president of a foreign nation. If you really want a forum to slag off Obama I suggest you go and start your own blog. Your subjective (and far from universally accepted) opinion of American politicians has nothing to do with us.
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ebf blogger,as far as my taking the blog away from the UK I am ONLY rebuffing or responding to many others here who have done the same! I will be absolutely delighted to restrict myself to the blog on UK issues. I had always thought that THIS blog extended to considering the “racist and religiously motivated hate crime rising in the UK” which,of course is not limited to BF. I will do my very best to do this.
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I am very unique given I am very blunt as to my own political status. I am a Nazi, I make no apologies for this. I believe in the genetic, spiritual, emotional and intellectual superiority of the Aryan race & Nordic race. I view Muslims, Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals, Slavic’s, Mixed race, Gypsies, the disabled, criminals, halfwits, drug addicts, trade unionists, the unemployed, sexual deviants and the left wing liberals who defend and encourage them as sub human.
Science has proved that Blacks are less advanced and this is beyond contestation Science has also proved the genetic superiority of the Aryan genome. Science has proved that Muslims are unstable and that Jews simply cannot be trusted. Science has proved homosexuality is a mental illness and Lombroso proved their was a criminal gene.
Societies that have embraced diversity are like dogs who have bred with mongrels. I believe that we in Northern Europe are a Master Race and we should view the rest of the world as sub humans and servile to us and we should view them as a slave race and genetically a different species.
I believe that the Fuhrer, Adolph Hitler, was not only divinely inspired but a Biblical prophet. I also think he would be embarrassed and appalled at groups such as the EDL, BF and The BNP because they are idiots and an embarrassment to the Right and he would line them up against the wall and shoot them before any of the above were sent for special treatment
I believe in Dictatorships such as Pinochet’s Chile or Franco’s Spain which are the benchmarks for all modern dictatorships
We now need to cleanse the world, reduce population and live once again as the Master Race and eliminate anyone who disagrees
Heil Hitler
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General Pinochet,apart from qualifying “unique” as it means a one off,your post demonstrates a highly educated mind and a keen sense of the absurd and,most importantly, an equally keen sense of right and wrong. Your take on Hitler goes somewhat skew whiff as he rarely referred to Christianity in other than a disdainful way and both Joseph Goebbels and Albert Speer attested to this. His religious bias was definitely slanted towards Islam. The sympathy he had for the Arab,especially the Palestinian cause was the theme of his many discussions with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. In addition many muslim soldiers joined the ranks of the German Army.Antonio de Oliveira Salazar was also a much praised dictator of Portugal.
The BNP,the EDL and BF are also idiots from the right as of course is UAF on the left.
If you can keep up this extremely high standard in future posts I will be one of your biggest fans!!
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Your grasp of sciece and genetics is very tenuous, as is your grasp of English. You do know that Aryans are/were Indo/European or Iranian/European, just the people you say you detest so much? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aryan
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Caroline, do you not understand that “General Pinochet” is taking the piss and just showing up the ludicrous people he is mentioning. He is in fact lampooning them and criticising them. At least I very much hope so!!
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Terry, I have also met and got to know a number of extremely charming Muslims some of whom try to discuss religion with me. I have always avoided this although I have been tempted to. I do SO wish that all the many(100+) really violent verses of the ORIGINAL and most widely accepted version of the Qur’an collated by the Caliph Uthman some 30 +years after Muhammad’s death in AD 732 could be deleted and a new AUTHORISED version be used. It would also make that unholy book a great deal easier to read and omit the bunch of fairy stories,inconsistencies and idiocies some of. which unfortunately also appear in the Old Testament.!
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I feel that in the current climate that we need to be careful talking about white Christians being radicalised. It is no different to talking about Asian Muslims being radicalised and all that it serves is to create an atmosphere of “us and them” that is the very danger we are discussing. David, I would point you to the IRA and the “Real IRA” during the 80’s and 90’s who were causing as much trouble as ISIS is currently, causing all sorts of havoc both in Ireland and in London. The IRA in fact posed a far greater threat than ISIS has ever posed in this country because the IRA would target UK home ground. My point is that Christianity has shown it has equal capacity to grow groups just like ISIS even though many Christians would reject these groups and their actions, just as many Muslims reject ISIS, Boko Haram etc and events such as 9/11 and the 7/7 London bombings. It is more important than ever that those of us who believe in a fair and equal society put aside religious and political differences and petty squabbles and come together to fight against that which stops the world from being a fair and equal society.
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Grizzlyvamp, I have always regarded the saying that “comparisons are odious” as ridiculous.Therefore I am emboldened to say that to compare the IRA and Real IRAs killing to the atrocities committed by ISIS,Boko Haram,Al Qaeda,al Shabaab, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Al Nuzra Front etc is like comparing the effects of WW2 to those following the Boer War and is ludicrous. It is reliably estimated that the lot above have already killed 1,000,000 plus quite apart from taking young Christian girls and women as sex slaves, and smashing churches many of which were built 350 years before Muhammad invented Islam. I cannot recall the IRA doing any of this! Also,hundreds of British muslims are now fighting with these groups throughout Syria and Iraq and are being arrested in the UK. in ever growing numbers.
Only when the conversation is swiftly brought back to UK concerns and disingenuous comparisons are avoided can this blog hope to allow us to comment by putting aside “unreasonable religious and political differences” in Britain which you very rightly enumerate in the last part of your post.
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David, with all due respect you are talking absolute nonsense. Murder is murder whether it is via beheading, a bullet to the head, blown to pieces or any other method you care to mention. I brought up the IRA/Real IRA as examples as they were on our door step, recent and horrific however there are other such groups that operate today in similar areas to ISIS, Boko Haram etc that are equally awful and need dealing with. The problem is that our media chooses to focus on just the Muslim groups rather than the other groups causing just as much misery. Also the groups you mention all operate outside the UK and the danger from them here is minimal and incidences that occur are very rare and often are from radicalised youths who have been mislead by these groups. So your argument about UK concerns doesn’t work in the slightest and as I have stated before, if not here then on Facebook that shutting up our borders and becoming insular to the rest of the world will just harm us rather than benefit us. At the end of the day Islamic inspired extremism forms only a small portion of extremism. The far right, far left, Christian extremists and other religious extremists (excluding Muslim extremist) form the largest portion of extremists. Even then when you look at the religious extremists the reasons for their violence stem from greed and a lust of power in other words politically motivated.
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grizzlyvamp, I consider your posts to be far more vapid than ANYTHING I have ever posted on here..Where on earth are these “equally awful other groups” you mention and what are their names.You blithely state a load of non sequiturs and generalisations which are simply off subject and unprovable.It is PROVABLE that ISIS and Al Qaeda do have very considerable influence on susceptible young British muslims hence the ever growing number going to join their ranks including now many young WHITE ones. and British girls and young women I have actually only once ever mentioned “shutting our borders”except possibly to men from Pakistan,a particularly fundamentalist Islamic country whose immigrants form the vast majority of the grooming and sex slave gangs and prisoners in our highest security gaols
I very much doubt that you ever give my posts the attention that I consider they deserve before shooting off your responses! Did you take in my comment about the Deobandi extremist mosques constituting 45% of the total in the UK.Do you seriously not believe that they are often hotbeds for the encouragement of Jihad?. I have to suggest that if you are not a muslim apologist you are darned close to being one. I sympathise with all those poor unfortunate,peace and law abiding, muslims unfairly caught up in this confounded mess and being criticised and pilloried by the ghastly BF and others but I refuse to compromise my duty to the Lord God to defend Christians from being pilloried just because they are Christians. You do enough of that to satisfy any critic of Christianity!
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Ok, you asked for it David: http://aattp.org/here-are-8-christian-terrorist-organizations-that-equal-isis/
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Apologise for the Wikipedia reference however it still supports what I am trying to get across. This was all gained from a quick google search as well.
I missed the Deobandi extremist mosques point however I would like to see your source for the 45% of all mosques in the UK are Deobandi claim as all sources I am aware of contradict your claim. I have never once defended Islam or extremism of any kind and have made it perfectly clear I am against any form of extremism. Violence is never the answer it only ever leads to further violence, however I support self-defence as self-prevalence is inbuilt into all of us. I have been very vocal against statements that encourage “us versus them” mentality no matter what side it has come from. I may well have argued in generalisations however that in itself does not invalidate my argument.
You complain about me not giving your posts the attention you believe them to deserve yet you blindly dismiss my main point which has been the central theme to most if not all of my posts that Islam is no worse than any other extremist activity. Jihad is no doubt an issue and a concern when interpreted to warfare however I view crusades in the same light. Besides jihad merely means struggle and does not have to be physical so to say that all jihad is wrong/evil is to say that spiritual struggles are evil/wrong which clearly they are not.
The bible teaches unconditional love to be the most important thing in this world and that no amount of faith, power, good will, charity, mercy or anything else you care to mention amounts to anything without it. Evangelism without unconditional love is just a clanging cymbal. Besides it is you who goes against conventional Christian thinking about the Old testament – there are very few who say that it can be ignored entirely and that is from multiple church (ie different churches I have been to, I go to a bible based pentecostal church and have a strong C of E background not that there should be any relevance to that) teachings. In all my posts I have only said that you are blowing 1 bit of a much larger problem completely out of proportion. In response to this you have chosen to build straw-men (see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), attack my beliefs and character, and done the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “lalalalalalala! Not listening!” merely because my views oppose your own.
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It is reliably reported that Pope Francis in a meeting with Mahmoud Abbas,the President of Fatah has called him “an Angel of Peace” I never realised that my once great admiration for this pope could possibly turn into ostracising him for being a total prat. It is bad enough to have continuous and unkind attacks on Christianity without being attacked by the leader of most of the WORLD’S Christians. Talk about an own goal. The Archbishop of Westminster must be thinking how or why he and his flock deserved this. It is very similar to Anjem Choudary becoming chums with Pamela Geller.
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I fail to see, David, how that has any relevance to the subject of the blog post other than the fact that Pope Francis has worked hard to build bridges between Christians and other faiths and to foster mutual understanding and respect between religions Unlike Britain First who are intent on dividing the citizens of Britain on ethnic and religious grounds and teaching those who identify themselves as Christian, whether as practising Christians or based on their Christian heritage, to fear and hate their Muslim, brown and black fellow citizens and it is this hatred which contributes to the racial and religious hate crime which is the subject of this blog.
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ebfnemesis, although you are quite correct to praise the accepted(by Christians) good work of President Mahmoud Abbas and Pope Francis he has not done as much for Middle East Christians in the long time he has been in office as President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi of Egypt in office for less than two years If the Pope would use SUCH an honorific epithet on a man who has publicly called for a reformation of Islam because of its poor image in the non-muslim world and given greater protection to the millions of Copts then an Angel might be somewhat less oddly used for a non-Christian.
There is a huge difference between dislike and hate. I have known very many British Christians and never have I heard from them of any extremist churches espousing and promoting any dislike of muslims. I do believe that the licence for many muslims to practice shari’a law in some communities, to have different swimming pools for non-muslims, to have separate areas in university halls and and lectures,separate areas for women in mosques,the wearing of full face veils,not learning English etc,etc does not exactly promote togetherness and harmony. Whilst there is no discernible VIOLENCE by Christians there probably is dislike which is not so much in print but certainly in conversation. However, do you not believe that Muslims in the UK should not make a concerted effort to fully integrate as Hindus,Sikhs and,generally(apart from the Hasidic ones) Jews have done? This aspect is the crux of the problem.
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ebfnemesis, I believe that due to Islamic proselytizing a significant proportion of muslims leaving to join ISIS and Al Qaeda are white British citizens. This can only be prevented by clamping down hard on known extremists and extremist mosques. The decision of these would be terrorists owes relatively little to the efforts of BF but far more to mosques and madrassahs which are controlled by the extremely orthodox Deobandi sect which a Spectator report in June 2014 found controls around 45% of Britain’s mosques. This percentage is one of if not THE highest in Europe. It is alright for Theresa May to announce much stricter controls on extremist Islam so late in the day but it is of course better than never.
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Many Muslims do integrate quite happily. They just want to integrate as Muslims just as Hindus, Sikhs and Jews integrate in terms of their religious tenets.
I see no problem at with that.
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So Caroline you believe that the very large differences in our age old culture and customs and Islam’s should be perfectly acceptable although Jews,Sikhs and Hindus integrate whilst completely accepting ours based on Judeo-Christian principles and practices? You do realise don’t you that in the Qur’an Muslims are called by Muhammad the “best of all peoples”? This means that orthodox muslims are instilled with a supremacist outlook which is not what is promoted in the UN Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 which says that all men are born equal! What do you think would happen to a Christian in very many Muslim countries if he critisised Islamic supremacy?
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Grizzlyvamp,good morning. Let’s start by saying that I will be trying very hard to open your eyes to the REALITY of the present terrorist situation,a great deal NOW of very considerable concern to the UK as I will reveal. In my previous posts I have enumerated many facts but I now turn to WIKIPAEDIA for your benefit as I hope and trust you will accept what it says?!
The UAE has listed some 80 terrorist groups-all Muslim-including,of course,those I have listed before, including CAIR(Council for American-Islamic Relations) an organisation very closely linked to the Muslim Brotherhood and one which President Obama consults very frequently. It is interesting that virtually none of his advisers are Christian or from other religious backgrounds,whereas most are Islamic. The top 5 most bloody groups in the world are those I have named before. Your little lot of non muslim groups AGAIN pale into comparative obscurity. These five major groups SO FAR have been estimated to have killed over one million Christians,Jews and Yazidis,men,women,children and taken Infidel women and girls as sex slaves as allowed in the Qur’an.Q23v5&6, Q4v24.and others.. Also hundreds of churches have been sacked.
The piece I highlighted in my last post about the Deobandi sect’s influence in 45% of UK mosques was in a Spectator Report of 14 June 2014. If you google the subject of FITNA(struggle) you cannot fail to notice that most muslim/Islamic scholars agree that it represents militant struggle.
NOW let me provide you and,hopefully other posters on here with information which might well change everything we presently feel or think about terrorist activity in our own country! Widely reported on 16 May 2015 was a statement by the Libyan Government Adviser, Abdul Basit Haroun. In it he said that it was “blindingly obvious that ISIS and its allied groups in North Africa were using as a method of fundraising the smuggling of their fanatics into Europe” Libya knows more than most about terrorism. Apparently Italian intelligence networks have been told by ISIS that they will send THOUSANDS. England appears to be THE favourite destination for immigrants so God help us if this comes to pass. The vast majority of muslims here often classified as “moderates” and who have integrated so well and very often have adopted much of our culture and customs would face a death fatwa as their disobedience of strict shari’a law brands them in the eyes of ISIS as being Infidels. The alternatives to death are strict observance of Shari’a Law and customs, payment of a tax(jizzya), and/or accepting dhimmie status(second class citizens). If the ISIS threat actually happens then MI5,the Home Office and our police will be unbearably stretched. BF would certainly be classified as one of the very first groups to be dealt with by ISIS as it represents a huge affront to muslims! Paul Golding would lose his head and we all know what would be the fate of Jayda Fransen.
grizzlyvamp, I do not intend to continue with any comment on your Christianity as from so much of what you have said I take it for granted that you are a devout one. You are so right in what you say about LOVE for one’s fellow man. It is a huge pity that the media trades in the worst of people and not the best.
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Ok David, I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall and all I’m doing is bashing my head against it. I am not denying the danger of these extremists and as for this Deobandi sect having influence in 45% of Mosques however accurate that sum is if we assume it is correct within a reasonable degree of error the sect cannot be doing a very good job for a number of reasons. Even if the figure is around 45% that is still not even half the Muslim population here in the UK. The data is a year old by your own admission so who knows what has changed, not particularly relevant to my point but valid all the same. There should be far more extremist activity going on than there actually is. Before you even go calling cover up by the media just think about how often the press put negative spin on Islam if a Muslim so much as sneezes.
As for Wikipedia I don’t like using it as a reference (due to my background and the fact that you would get into trouble for referencing Wikipedia in university for numerous reasons irrelevant to the topic here) however I recognise it as a useful tool that can aid understanding. As before I will state Islamic extremism is an issue however so is any type extremism and to distinguish between different types is dangerous and it encourages “us vs them” mentality that only serves to encourage people turn to extremism. I’m getting pretty sick of having to repeat myself as you clearly are not going to change your mind so I shall leave it there.
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Dear grizzlyvamp,it strikes me that you have a butterfly mind not able to remember very much that you might have read more than five minutes afterwards! You would not need to go on and on ad nauseam ad infinitum if you were in the slightest inclined to see the truth in my posts. Have you not seen reports of the Muslim sharia patrols and notices put up by Anjem Choudary and his band of brothers in the Borough of Waltham Forest and his clarion call for shari’a law to fully replace English Law? He and MANY other muslim extremists are food and drink for BF. Can you PROVE that these Deobandi led mosques have not significantly influenced and radicalised many muslims going abroad for jihad?
Before I saw the light about BF as did St.Paul about our Lord, I used to watch some of BF’s videos and if only to credit BF for this I was struck first by the accompanying music/soundtrack which was often beautiful and the quality of the photography. If EBF could do the same I reckon that BF would disappear where it came from in double quick time. Is there not merit in a physical presence for EBF? I know,I know it is a wacky idea.
You may not believe what I have said about you in my comment to ebfnemesis but it was heartfelt and I do look forward to your posts on any blog and NOT going off subject in future.
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The extremists who attempted to make Waltham Forest a Sharia controlled zone were prosecuted back in 2013 for their criminal activity, David as I’m sure you know. It’s interesting that you omitted to mention that.
Our legal system is more than capable of dealing with this stuff without the general population becoming hysterical about a few misguided zealots.
Also, since (as I don’t doubt you also know) the burden of proof must always rest with those making any claim, it is not up to grizzlyvamp to disprove your assertions. The burden of proof lies with you.
However – to echo my colleague’s sentiment – this is not the thread for you either to prosletyze your view of Christianity or of Islam. Feel free to prove your point on a more relevant forum or thread.
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ebfblogger, do you think that you could possibly reply to me in words of one syllable how on earth it is NOW possible to exclude any even passing mention of ISIS or any allied groups when its Leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi constantly calls for the extermination of all infidels and is particularly vicious towards the USA and Britain. The more BF can learn of such as him and march with posters displaying him preaching will just allow them to claim that they are in the right.
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David, my memory serves me perfectly well, it is you who don’t seem to remember what you have posted. “grizzlyvamp, I consider your posts to be far more vapid than ANYTHING I have ever posted on here… …You blithely state a load of non sequiturs and generalisations which are simply off subject and unprovable.” Posted by you at 10.55 pm yesterday laying into my argument and process of reasoning. I will come back to this shortly.
“Of course I take your words firmly on board even allowing grizzlyvamp to stir me any further without response. Actually,he is a fine commenter and he addresses the subject of this blog very conscientiously and well IMO.” Posted again by you earlier today, like the other reply I mentioned on this post, this time complimenting my replies in spite of the compliment being at odds with your previous statement, and we’ll just skip over the fact I fail to see how me “stirring you” has anything to do with the topic at hand.
I have always responded specifically to points you have made so any time I have been off topic it has been due to you being off topic in the first place. Also I and everyone else on this blog are not denying that militant Islam exists or isn’t a problem we are just saying that you are blowing that threat out of proportion and focusing in on one small part of a much larger danger which is extremism of any form. You are the one always bringing it back to militant Islam ad nauseam ad infinitum – there is only so many variances that can be used to counter the same argument. As ebfblogger has kindly pointed out the burden of proof does not lie on me for any of your assertions. Where I have made assertions and therefore the burden of proof has been on me I have always backed it up and when I have been a bit sloppy because I’ve been using more general knowledge than specific knowledge on the subject I have corrected myself and I even posted numerous links to counter the criticism made when there was fair criticism.
The big problem I have in your argument is that, especially in the UK, it is always the same handful of names that consistently get used because by and large it is the minority that is causing trouble. The fact of the matter is that where Islamic extremism is going on or suspected of going on it is being dealt with. Also if you look at the actual reliable numbers of those being radicalised to ISIS cause is very small within the Muslim population and so in the wider population contributes to less than 1% of society. I keep coming back to it but it still holds true the is is the “us vs them” attitude that is the issue not idiots like Anjem Choudary or Paul Golding who spout out hateful propaganda to insight violence. Also as has been pointed out Anjem Choudary and his organisations are restricted and cannot freely move, unfortunately Paul Golding is still free to spout his hate unhindered along with the rest of Britain First. To say it is coming from the right or from the left or from Islam or Christianity is demonising whoever falls into that category and puts innocent people at risk. Compassion and mercy is always more effective than hate and retaliation.
I would also point out the music choice is deliberately chosen by Britain First to stir strong emotions and many of us who support EBF find the music tedious and over used. It is all apart of the propaganda wheel designed towards confirmation bias (look it up) that results in them making a profit. If EBF were to use such tactics it would just be counter-productive.
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This time the only big beef I have with you is your comment on BF’s music.I have a classical music learning and playing and I do contend that its music is often beautiful and stirring and perfect for marching to.
You are frankly being extremely naive about Choudary’s influence. Nelson Mandela had huge influence on apartheid for almost all the time he was in solitary confinement. Choudary is by some way the leading cleric in the UK. The media just adore him he is a real star for them. Prison for him(if he goes there)will act as a rallying cry for every budding Jihadi and an insisting message for them to see it as a religious clarion call to establish shari’a law in the UK and to turn Buckingham Palace into a mega mosque. It is just so difficult now for us on EBF to effectively reach a much wider audience because so many of our non-muslim population like the muslim one are just trying to get on with our/their lives and hoping that the Government will cope with all/any terrorism coming our way.
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Well I’ll take that as a victory then since music taste is very subjective and on the individual so irrelevant to the rest of what was being said. As for being naive about Choudary’s influence I have to say that before Britain First I had never even heard of him. The reason I bring that up is because like many people I have seen on EBF before they found Britain First and discovered what they were about I had not heard of Anjem Choudary or his very proscribed groups. In other words you are give far too much credence to the man and his followers. There have been numerous stories of Imams publicly rejecting and rebuking Anjem Choudary and the only place I have have ever seen him referred to as a leading cleric is Britain First and we all know what a fount of reliable source of information Britain First is. Yes I am at this point being ironic as Britain First lie, tell half truths, exploit and dox perfectly innocent people with the sole intent of harm being caused all the time.
As to your point about Anjem going to prison would only serve as a calling rally he has already been arrested at least once and unless I am mistaken has served time before so some how doubt we would see a sudden surge in support for him. The likes of Anjem Choudary are no more or less of a threat than the likes of Paul Golding and his like minded thugs. I am very aware of the danger they pose, I just chose to view that danger in light they are in – a small minority, hell-bent on causing trouble and trying to start wars very few people want in the first place. Personally I wish they’d all go and shut up about each other and let us ordinary, peace loving people to get on with our lives without having to hear them tell us we need to take up arms against a group or groups of people. Whilst these people ignore these wishes I, and people who are like-minded such as EBF (in other words people who also want peace) will choose to speak out against the lies of these individuals and their groups and present the truth in place of the lie.
At the end of the day extremism is only truly dangerous if we allow it to be, if we ignore it and let the authorities deal with the really dangerous situations where lives are genuinely under threat extremism amounts to nothing more than big babies throwing their toys out of the pram because they aren’t getting their way. That’s all Anjem, Paul, Jayda and anyone else you care to mention are doing, throwing a big temper tantrum and then demanding we give them their toys back after having thrown them out of the pram several times. You start ignoring that behaviour and encourage better behaviour you will see a decline in extremism on all sides. Of course you can’t get rid of extremism entirely as unfortunately there will always be misguided, unpleasant humans but they are a minority and the best thing we can do to keep them the minority is to just ignore them until they do something silly when you intervene and reprimand them as you would reprimand a child for bad behaviour. A simple philosophy I know but one that has shown to be effective.
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grizzlyvamp,whilst I admire your altruistic sentiment regarding the general population ignoring extremism and horrors like Anjem Choudary,in the REAL world it will never happen that way. Anjem as I have explained before really enjoys keeping the religious “pot” well stirred and he has many followers inside and outside Britain who do the same. If he did not have such a grasp of ORTHODOX Islam then nasty groups like BF would not be such a threat as he provides them with so much ammunition. Being a clever lawyer Choudary has managed to escape prison for many years.
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David, Jim Dowson – the puppet-master and real leader of Britain First (take a look at all the evidence EBF has posted that he is still apart of the group even if he claimed to have left) is just as clever and equally vile as Anjem Choudary. Stop treating these people like adults, they are not. They are children in adult bodies throwing temper tantrums and wanting their own way, stop giving them credence and start treating them like the naughty school children they are behaving like, if they insist on carrying on then let the police do their job, that is what they are paid for – to deal with especially troublesome behaviour.
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grizzlyvamp,at times like this post of yours you honestly appear to go well over the top to prove your utter ignorance of the FACTS. Anjem Choudary is in the opinion of very many extremely knowledgeable “moderate” muslims and non-muslims who appreciate the difficulties that these unfortunate souls face in the UK THE greatest threat in the UK closely followed by BF and the UAF who represent the left’s unpleasant face. Choudary constantly makes it extremely difficult for the vast majority of Bitish muslims by his touting of all the most unpleasant things which would happen not only to white and black “Infidels” but to the “moderates”as he does not regard them as true followers of Islam if Britain became an Islamic Caliphate.
I would be surprised if in the near future BF will not latch onto the prospect of ISIS fanatics entering the UK and its disgusting cries of “Terrorist Scum off our Streets” being heard yet again. I wonder what are the chances of BF being proscribed as a terrorist organisation. Pretty remote I am afraid
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David, please take a deep breath and just think about what you have just said. “at times like this post of yours you honestly appear to go well over the top to prove your utter ignorance of the FACTS.”
I think I have shown through out that though I may not have in-depth knowledge of the subject matter I have a perfectly clear understanding of the facts themselves. I have come to a different conclusion to you as I interpret the significance and consequences of the facts differently – something that is subjective rather than factual. At the end of the day I am aware of the facts that matter and have made my position based on those facts. So forgive me if I ignore your highly immature accusation of being ignorant of the facts.
The fact of the matter is yes Anjem Choudary is very clever and has avoided prison by never doing anything that is technically illegal and therefore can be arrested for under our law. The same goes for Jim Dowson and all the other leaders of similar tact. But if anything all that does is goes towards proving my point. These peoples power comes from being listened to and given attention. Remove that attention away they start to essentially just talk to themselves. Whenever someone does listen to what they say and act on it more often than not the are caught and when on the very rare occasion when unfortunately they are successful find themselves more often than not brought to justice in accordance to our laws. So if anything your argument only strengths the point I am trying to make. If they want a platform then by all means give it to them – that is their right no matter how much we disagree with what they are saying. That platform does not require an audience however anyone who does become the audience acts according to their own actions and they must accept the consequences of those actions.
The point is the vast majority of people are going to pay little to no attention to what Anjem, Jim or whoever say and will only be affected if they are allowed to. As for the minority that do listen and do respond, well as I have said the police deal with them all the time. When these minorities become the state then yes you start to have a more serious issue as they can change the laws so that human rights aren’t respected the way they currently are here. However the big pit fall is that these minorities are very unlikely to gain legitimate power as no one would vote them in and any attempt to take that power by force would be a suicide in the UK which by your argument is what “matters”. Besides of those states that are Islamic as far as I’m aware there is only one that enforces Sharia law to the degree Anjem Choudary advocates.
The current situation can very much be summarised as “the free thinking world” vs “(Militant) Islam” and organisations like Britain First claim to be against only extremists but every time they show they are against all Muslims whether “moderate” or “radical”/”extreme”. All this is doing is turning those of us who aren’t Muslims against Muslims which will only result in bloodshed and war that most of us never wanted in the first place. Millions of innocent people would be killed on both sides. That is what your attitude is supporting, that is the only logical conclusion to your argument. I’m saying that there is a better way, that we don’t have to demonise millions of people, that we don’t have to end it in bloodshed and all that it takes is to ignore those who want bloodshed and those who chose to ignore that and attempt to shed blood are apprehended and punished accordingly. It is hardly rocket science. This “us” vs “them” thinking you are using is the very danger we are both discussing.
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grizzlyvamp, there really is absolutely no use our arguing the toss on this subject and spending inordinate amounts of our time and trouble and causing, I believe, other BF supporters to refrain from commenting!
I doubt if we will ever agree on almost anything. I have come to the point of being contented with ALL my propositions,statements and arguments and believing that you just do not understand what is really happening and who exactly are the movers and shakers involved in the subject of this blog. I do however hugely admire your very obvious literacy and intelligence(I am NOT trying to being condescending or patronising). I wish you a very happy and fulfilling life and good commenting on EBF.
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You are of course perfectly right David, we are never going to agree on this and it would be futile to carry on debating a point that we will never see eye to eye on. I have made my stance very clear and presented the basis for that stance and won’t say any more on that. I will close by making a couple of points, I’m not going to debate with you over them just make of them what you will. There have been a number of times when you have addressed both myself and others here and sounded an awful lot like Britain First and your posts have been very reminiscent of some of their followers. You are clearly much more cleaver than that and obviously have strong convictions of your own but I would challenge you on if some of that is misplaced? As I said before I’m not up for discussing this just making you aware of a couple of observations I have made and its for you to do with as you see fit. No doubt we will cross paths again at some point over a different topic but until then.
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grizzlyvamp, I feel bound to reply to your rather silly comment on my sometimes sounding like a BF follower.
The ONLY time that I might even have had a mere crumb of sympathy with that bunch is when I see and hear people like Choudary spout vile comments about our ancient English Law, our Judeo-Christian culture and customs, our police,our soldiers and our lifestyle whilst very happily and gloatingly announce how much he was enjoying all the many benefits we stupidly hand out to him and other now convicted terrorists like Abu Hamza!! Do you not believe that a man who would put our Queen out on the street and convert Buckingham Palace into a mega mosque upsets ALL right minded muslims so many of whom love our Queen and the fact that they are living as her subjects in a true democracy.
Unfortunately for this country and ALL right minded of its citizens, this utterly disgusting lump of excrement still IS a muslim and is ALLOWED to be THE most divisive one even without the help of the BF. It is vital that the many moderate muslim scholars and imams start attacking this man for his TREASONOUS views and words because very few if any of them could best him on his ultra orthodoxy. Of course his thugs and hit men. are very effective in providing a deterrent
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For any on this blog,the full report on ISIS intentions may be found on Friends of Syria,
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David, I feel I have to respond to your accusation of making a silly comment. You over used caps lock to unnecessarily emphasise your point, including the biffers favourite – FACT well you added an s on the end but point is still valid. You constantly go on about the same person over and over as if he has more power than he actually has and the power he does have is being given not by Muslims but by Britain First and people like you who keep on insisting on bringing him up every 5 seconds even though he has been watched by the authorities for sometime and had his groups proscribed. It is eerie just how much your comments sound just like Britain First. You claim to be unimpressed by them but even if that is so that just makes you closer to the EDL who quite frankly are just as bad but we’ll leave it there. Look back at your own comments, listen to what you are saying, go back and read my own comments and others like me who have opposed your position and reconsider where your opinions and position come from. I nor anyone else can change your mind for you and I at least certainly don’t want to change it for you – that has to come from you. Ignore me if it makes you feel better, brand me an ignorant fool or naive or whatever, at the end of the day I’m not the one living your life. I’ll leave you with this final thought – I hope I have come across as far from malicious and all I have tried to do is get you to see that there is a better you than what you currently are (and I’m not being self-righteous here in any way I recognise as well as anyone that there is a better me than the one I currently am but that is my struggle and my fight) I wish you well but for me this is closed. I’m sorry EBF for getting off topic but I hope you understand.
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grizzlyvamp,even by your often low standards of thought and expression this latest contribution truly tops the lot. I always post thoughtfully. Just because I equate Choudary as being equal in malevolent effect to BF does not make me wrong,it is you who epitomises the truism “there are none so blind as those who will not see.” I do not want or need tedious moralising from the likes of you who increasingly comes across as my own Judas Iscariot. If I were you I would just try taking the beam out of your own eye first.
Your take on this particular subject is one which completely ignores the very core of the problem and you are very like the three monkeys in your entire approach to an extremely fraught and delicate problem.It is pathetically simplistic in the extreme.
Finally, I look forward,without much hope, to seeing a comment by you which for once gets to the heart of this very important blog and deals in practicalities rather than pure obfuscation!
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grizzlyvamp, I have given, as I always do, much thought to our relative views on this blog and the other. I fail to understand why you appear to have appointed yourself as my judge,jury and executioner on behalf of all the other posters on EBF. You so obviously dislike so many of my posts as I do yours.
So, in your future efforts rather than using the blog as a sounding board for your grievances about me which have nothing whatsoever to do with all the other commenters, may I ask you to desist? I suggest that it is a thoroughly unedifying business and not worthy of you.
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David, it is very difficult to take anything you say seriously when you are uneven in what you say. You have chopped and changed your opinion of me several times to suit your post though largely been extremely negative, made personal attacks on myself when all I have done is challenge your views (I’ll come back to this later) and entirely ignored my view point in favour of your own so that you do not have to change your attitude. I too equate Choudary and Britain First in malevolence, I just chose to apply parenthood 101 to it as they act like big children, throwing out their toys. Are you in anyway denying the statements I made based on what you yourself have posted?
As for calling me your version of Judas Iscariot you are showing just how hysterical you actually are. I do not know you at all so how could I possibly betray you? What possible motivation could I possibly have that would lead me to betray you? Again you tell me to first try and take the beam out of my own eye, yet I have attempted to point out that though I see your point I disagree fundamentally with it and am the first person to admit my own weaknesses and mistakes so I think I am seeing clear enough on this particular issue thank you very much.
You have constantly made personal attacks on my character, faith (though I will admit you have desisted on this particular point since I last pointed it out) and used a mixture of conjecture, subjective thought and facts based around confirmation bias to make scathing attacks on my views and counterpoints. Not once have I ever attempted to make a personal attack on you – I have always challenged your ideas and views or at worst pointed out accurate observations of your behaviour in the hope you might realise is all I have been trying to do is show you that maybe there is a better way of seeing the world than what you see. I have spent the majority of my time on the back foot in recent posts because you have instead of just challenging views and point of view have made a personal attack on me.
“you honestly appear to go well over the top to prove [B]your utter ignorance[/B] of the FACTS.” I have highlighted an example of what I am talking about and there are more adjectives and examples that I could quote which relate directly to what you have said about me. If I have ever made a personal attack on you personally then I appologise as that was never my intention and have made every effort to avoid such attacks as I view them as unconstructive and hurtful.
I have not, as you accuse me, appointed myself your judge, jury and executioner. I have merely found your views dangerous in the extreme and have chosen to attempt to challenge those views constructively. On the contrary it is you on this blog who appears to have appointed themselves judge, jury and executioner as it is not just my views you shoot down but numerous others and have admitted yourself that you have not given others posts the attention and respect you expect from your own posts. You appear to have taken a particular dislike to myself, perhaps because I have refused to back down? It is your choice to refuse to listen to the points being made but when you make it personal I have the right to defend myself.
I am sure that you are aware that the only person who appears to be challenging me on your blog is yourself, perhaps you should ask yourself why that is? I am sure that there are plenty on this blog who do not see eye to eye with every single point I have made, in fact I would be more surprised if the majority here agreed with every point I have made. I am pretty sure that the majority agree with the sentiment behind what I’m saying – ie they make, broadly speaking, the same or similar conclusions to me but arrive there in a different way based on their own experience. You of course are going to dismiss what I have said as you have of course so please don’t bother replying unless you have something constructive and meaningful to say or that at least has some semblance of being on topic. Apologise to everyone else for the long, rather off topic post I will attempt to make this the last.
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grizzlyvamp, I really do commend you for daring to respond to my post. When we are coming from views which are SO far apart the words of George Washington might even ring hollow -” If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led like sheep to the slaughter”
I do not in any way wish to be rude but it does appear to me that so often you come across to me as a woolly,left-wing ultra liberal using your own slant to make your points rather than using facts. I have already on this blog described my own views as “balanced” having right wing views at times and vice versa which I believe is eminently sensible.
I very strongly suggest that as I am an old man with many debating miles on the clock that you refrain from “teaching your grandfather to suck eggs” and retire from the bull ring before you get gored.
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Ok David, you have come off as being incredibly rude to me (as I hope I have demonstrated) yet you carry on as such with more unnecessary insults. You have admitted and apologised to others when you have realised you have been rude to them, not that I expect an apology myself merely pointing out that you can recognise when you are being rude. I assure you that I am far from woolly and as for being left wing I am unashamed of that fact and in fact proud of it though I would like to know how you know I am left wing when I do not think I have said much about my economic views here. As for being ultra liberal I am far from an anarchist (extreme liberalism) and hold some rather conservative attitudes on those liberal views which I am not so proud of however I acknowledge that weakness in myself. I believe everyone has the right to be equal and everyone has the responsibility to contribute meaningfully to society within their own means. If that makes me naive and/or idealistic then so be it. I feel that your choice of quote is very appropriate and agree wholeheartedly with it.
As for your age I wrongly assumed you to be younger (but older than myself) than you clearly are and for that I apologise as I should not have made such an assumption and would have tried a different tact had I realised. Of course you’re not going to change your mind, I am (as you correctly observed) still young and open to different ideas, even if I disagree with them – a trait I hope to never lose. Not that age should be an open excuse for anyone’s attitude. I am not going to stop challenging your world views or anyone else’s I disagree with for that matter as is my right under free speech and am happy to listen to disagreement to my views as long as I feel that I am not being the one under attack so to speak. As for being ‘balanced’ in your argument I think there are a few of us here who would disagree with you and would that you have clearly been pushing your own agenda. I have attempted to be as balanced possible and conceded ground where I have got it wrong.
As for the debate itself I consider myself to have held my own well enough by countering your points with valid points of my own (agreeing with those points is irrelevant) and have always being on the defensive when I have personally been attacked choosing only to respond to the attack and not to retaliate in like. So whether or not I can be considered the winner is insubstantial in my opinion and being apart of the debate myself it is not my place to decide who “wins” nor is it yours. We have nothing more to achieve on this post and are no longer on topic so might I suggest we draw a line here and move on to other areas?
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Whether or not you will believe me I am genuinely sorry that my often intemperate and occasionally rude comments about you and your posts have upset you. I do realise in my better moments that I do sometimes go well over the top. Please do try to accept my sincere apologies.That said I care passionately for the views I propound on this and other blogs.BTW left-wing is by no means attached to economic views only.
I can only promise that in future I will give much thought before I respond to your often masterly use of the English language and the compassion you regularly show for your fellow man.
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As always when this topic comes up I shall direct you to the source from which I base and hold my views on left/right wing politics https://www.politicalcompass.org/
Your apology is of course accepted. I too hold passionately the views I share here which is why we keep clashing and there is nothing wrong with that but we do need to give space for others to join in. I honestly respect you for sticking to your views even if I personally see them as misguided and of a different time. For my part I will attempt to come across less hostile as clearly you have taken offence to my direct and blunt challenge of your views.
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Grizzlyvamp, I would only be so rude as to infer that in your case sometimes”Where ignorance is bliss t’is folly to be wise”.
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David, this blog is called Exposing Britain First, the subject of this blog post is the rise in racist and religiously motivated hate crime in the context of Britain First. It is not the place for a dissertation on Islam or ISIS.
This is the last time that I am going to ask you to stick to the subject, any further comments which are off topic will be removed in line with our policy here:
https://exposingbf.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/welcome-to-the-ebf-blog/
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Pertinent to the context of this blog I believe might I draw posters on here to google the website of The Christian Muslim Forum a small group founded in 2004 based in London E2 following an initiative by the then Archbishop of Canterbury,Dr Rowan Williams. I could only wish that this forum might grow hugely and have a profound impact on Christian-Muslim understanding and co-operation throughout the UK and address the subject of this blog.
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ebfnemesis,with the utmost respect, ISIS is now most unfortunately likely to be brought into the minds of very many of the population of the UK if reports by the Libyan Government Adviser and others resound in the press as this has done. Do you not think that my fourth and longest paragraph was totally to the point?
Of course I take your words firmly on board even allowing grizzlyvamp to stir me any further without response. Actually,he is a fine commenter and he addresses the subject of this blog very conscientiously and well IMO.
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ebfnemesis, you may be sure that if I had learned about the prosecution of the Muslim patrols and shari’a law in Waltham Forest I would have included it in my post. As far as the burden of proof is concerned where there is a particularly “delicate” subject I carry out much research on it.
Do you not consider at any time that your constant chiding when I do not highlight BF is like treating me as an ignorant child which I am beginning to resent! I am an old man who has seen and experienced probably too much. I have traveled extensively and carried out business in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Israel and the Sultanate of Oman where I acted as an Adviser to Sultan Qaboos bin Said al Said. I have seen and experienced Jewish, Christian and Muslim bigotry and discrimination. I am extremely glad and delighted that it was our Lord who firmly separated church and state 2000 years ago when the lines were even more blurred than now. If you do not know the passage I thoroughly recommend St.Mathew Ch 22 vs 15-22 where being invited to incriminate Himself by the Pharisees Christ asked for a Roman coin.” Whose inscription is this? Caesar’s of course. Well then give unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s and to God the things that be God’s” QED.
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David, I think that your reply was intended for ebfblogger but I will reply to your second paragraph.
No-one is questioning your maturity or your intelligence, no-one is suggesting that your comments are not interesting, the issue is one of relevance to the individual blog posts.
This is the Exposing Britain First Blog, all the blog posts relate to Britain First, our sole purpose is to expose Britain First and its use of myths and lies to create fear and hatred of, not only, as they state, Muslim extremists, but all Muslims, all immigrants and all ethnic minorities, both foreign and British born.
This particualr blog post relates to racist and religiously motivated hate crime in the context of Britain First, anything that you have to say on this subject is welcome whether you agree with the blog post or not but digressing into other areas which do not relate to Britain First and the subject of the post takes the discussion off topic and our policy is to remove posts which do not stay on topic.
I hope that this clarifies matters for you and that you will continue to contribute to the blog with comments that relate to the topic.
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I’m very familiar with the NT (& the OT) thanks, David. I’m also familiar with the variety of interpretations related to that particular passage.
Thankyou for finally acknowledging the reality of bigotry and discrimination perpetrated by religious affiliates other than Muslims (including Christians).
The burden of proof remains with the claimant, I’m afraid no matter how impressed that claimant may be with themselves.
So far as the tone of my responses is concerned I can only reiterate that this blog is about Exposing Britain First. It is not about Religious prosletyzing per se, scriptural exegesis or commentaries on the characteristics of foreign political leaders. If you believe that pointing that out is treating you like an ignorant child then so be it. You have a right to interpret our interactions however you wish. I however will not allow such erroneous assumptions to impact upon my own interactions with you.
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ebfblogger, could you possibly admit that restricting the subject of this blog purely to BF is rather difficult at this time when that unpleasant bunch appear to have drawn their horns in and gone really quiet?. I am absolutely certain that the utterly pathetic turnout at Dudley must have set them back a great deal and even put off their most fervent supporters. Also, the funds they received for items like flags and the expensive uniforms was miles below what they were hoping for.
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We think there’s masses of blog material. Indeed many planned posts will cover precisely the Biffer myrhs you have raised yourself.
The issue we have currently is the constant distractions that seem to have more to do with personal grandstanding than relevant discussion.
However, I tire of repeating this point and am unlikely to do so again.
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